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For starters, I've never heard a fellow Quaker call anyone a "Godless bastard." I have heard numerous times say that God loves and saves atheists. That is harsh rhetoric that I've seen more from atheists themselves in the year 2020.
You use the term "dogma"...dogma goes against my religious values.
Dogma is a group of principles/rules set by an authority. The Quaker Church was founded on being opposed to the Dogma of a church, which is a highly centralized power structure like the Catholic Church with the Pope or the Church of England. One person dictates to the masses is not a good system according to George Fox who say we must all find God personally through our own connections to Jesus/God....that is what expectant waiting is for. And my experiences with Jesus/God might be different than someone else's....and that is okay.
I believe that God gave us freewill, which includes the freewill to make choices including on religion.
This is why religion should be decentralized, so it protects people's freewill. No one telling anyone else what they must believe....everyone with their God-given freewill in tact. The power of freewill must remain with people's hearts, heads, and hands...to love, think, and do deeds with as long as they don't violate someone else's God-given inalienable rights.
Fox argued that centralized religion leads to corruption like the Spanish Inquisition. You keep power spread out where it belongs...to individuals.
There were times where we were illegal in England for this very reason, there were times where US states made it so Quakers couldn't vote since we also opposed war.
Based on previous comments I can safely assume that I am lumped in to
'cafeteria" Christians...and you therefore say I am "pretending that (I am) following (my) religion." Well...I hope you weren't trying to be demeaning on purpose. I am extremely sincere as a Quaker...and no I am not a perfect Quaker...is anybody a perfect anything? However, can you find a way that I am not living up to Quaker ideals:
Ok. No, I shan't be asking questions as (from what heard from a Quaker that I worked with) you people are not a problem for we goddless bastards (which is a term that I use rather than others).
It always happens All threads come down to debating the factuality of Biblegod, and (on the theist side) as often as not that is done by atheism -bashing, since they have no credible case.
In order to totally off topic (sue me), allow me to observe that even in Siem Reap, the maddest driving ethic I have ever seen anywhere (though Yangon comes close), they observed a two way flow, out of sheer self preservation, I suspect.
P.s of course you may have been making a quip so subtle I only just got it. In fact they drive on the left (as we still do in the UK) so for you it is the wrong way, but never mind, they all drive that wrong way, so why worry?
I've driven in more than a few countries where their right way is our wrong way, most recently in Ireland and Scotland. In Ireland, I was driving on the left side of the road when a woman in the car coming our way was also driving on the same side. Headed straight for us frantically waving me to go into the other lane. To avoid a head on collision, I did so while also pointing her to get into the other lane. I watched her in my rear view mirror quickly figure out she was in the wrong as she corrected herself and moved into the opposite lane while I also moved back to the left side of the road. No doubt a tourist like me...
In Thailand it's a little different. A lot different actually. There are cars going in every which way from multiple directions, and if you haven't heard of their invisible middle lane, check it out!
"When driving remember that there is an invisible third lane that runs down the center of the road, anyone can use this. If you find yourself on bendy roads like the ones you'll encounter up north, stay away from the center line as they will be overtaking on your side of the road coming from the opposite direction. Buses, lorries ... They all do it , at speed ... So stay away from that invisible third lane on bendy roads and blind hills."
I saw more wild driving in Thailand than anywhere else in all my driving years. No doubt why Thailand is among the worst if not the #1 worst vehicle accidents country in the world. If the drivers don't kill you the road conditions will.
On topic because Thailand is a Buddhist country, so a rejection...
Ok. No, I shan't be asking questions as (from what heard from a Quaker that I worked with) you people are not a problem for we goddless bastards (which is a term that I use rather than others).
You think BFun would be happy if the (US) government decided quakerism is the true christian belief and that it will be taught in every school public and private?
For starters, I've never heard a fellow Quaker call anyone a "Godless bastard." I have heard numerous times say that God loves and saves atheists. That is harsh rhetoric that I've seen more from atheists themselves in the year 2020.
You use the term "dogma"...dogma goes against my religious values.
Dogma is a group of principles/rules set by an authority. The Quaker Church was founded on being opposed to the Dogma of a church, which is a highly centralized power structure like the Catholic Church with the Pope or the Church of England. One person dictates to the masses is not a good system according to George Fox who say we must all find God personally through our own connections to Jesus/God....that is what expectant waiting is for. And my experiences with Jesus/God might be different than someone else's....and that is okay.
I believe that God gave us freewill, which includes the freewill to make choices including on religion.
This is why religion should be decentralized, so it protects people's freewill. No one telling anyone else what they must believe....everyone with their God-given freewill in tact. The power of freewill must remain with people's hearts, heads, and hands...to love, think, and do deeds with as long as they don't violate someone else's God-given inalienable rights.
Fox argued that centralized religion leads to corruption like the Spanish Inquisition. You keep power spread out where it belongs...to individuals.
There were times where we were illegal in England for this very reason, there were times where US states made it so Quakers couldn't vote since we also opposed war.
Based on previous comments I can safely assume that I am lumped in to
'cafeteria" Christians...and you therefore say I am "pretending that (I am) following (my) religion." Well...I hope you weren't trying to be demeaning on purpose. I am extremely sincere as a Quaker...and no I am not a perfect Quaker...is anybody a perfect anything? However, can you find a way that I am not living up to Quaker ideals:
I can only speak for myself, but whatever you want to call it -- cherry picking or being a cafeteria _________ -- is the only intelligent way to be a religious person. So I'm not sure that Trans is putting that down.
The only way you folks can have no dogma is by having no set of common set of beliefs. Is that really true?
Ok. No, I shan't be asking questions as (from what heard from a Quaker that I worked with) you people are not a problem for we goddless bastards (which is a term that I use rather than others).
Well that is fine. I just don't enjoy being told that I am "pretending" to be a Christian/Quaker. My belief is sincere and I try to lead a good life in a very difficult world.
My bf is an atheist. We are both good people trying to do our best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15
You think BFun would be happy if the (US) government decided quakerism is the true christian belief and that it will be taught in every school public and private?
so say we all
Arguably one of the biggest points of George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends, was that no government should have control over religion nor push it. Hence when Quakers came to the new world unlike the Puritans we didn't tie in religious requirements to the community living.
So...my point is it is a bit of an oxymoron I would say to have Quakerism being an official religion pushed on others....the point is that people shouldn't be forced on how they interact (or not) with God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I don't think anyone wants to "demean" you, Quaker, certainly not me. You expressed that you are late teens/early 20's. I think what most of us are trying to do, certainly I am, is shake you from your religious stupor and see the world and life as it really is: a world devoid of God taking any kind of part in human activity down here. I want to do that to prevent you from losing the majority of your life, as I did, to a belief system that has absolutely no foundation to support it except the sincere desires of a group of badly deceived people to believe it is is true. How can I best state this........It ISN'T true. Any of it. I challenge you, just like someone challenged me 8 years or so ago in the Christian forum, I challenge you to tell me a single instance that can be scientifically verified where God miraculously intervened in a person's life to change it for the better. I think you will, if you're honest, reflect on it and say, "You know I cannot."
Now I ask you to consider the opposite: a world where young people (adults too) who believe in and pray to Jesus are routinely sold into the worst kinds of servile and sexual slavery where they are subjected to the most brutal, painful and dehumanizing kinds of subjugation. And Jesus, who supposedly loves these innocent victimized children, is nowhere to be seen when atrocities are perpetrated on these Jesus believers who call on him to free them from these evils.
I am constantly mystified that Christians can compartmentalize these two inexorable things: belief in a good God and a loving Jesus, and evil in the world that is so extreme that to actually show the worst of it in documentary form would be to invite the most severe censure--it's that bad. Tell me, Quaker, please
How do you manage to reconcile these two dichotomies???????I really want to know how the mind of a good person like yourself manages to separate the two and still maintain their faith.
Are you able to do it without resorting to those old red herrings, "Oh, God knows about it. He's just waiting until He sends his son back in the Millennium to right all evil in the world." Or "God didn't do it, man did when he sinned in the garden." Please, oh, please oh PLEEEEEZE don't throw that at us, I beg you.
I will be 19 towards the end of next month, but what does my age make a difference? I am a legal adult. My age doesn't mean I am naïve. My bf is 30...so what...age isn't that big of a deal....people's head, heart, and hands are more important. Do they have good thoughts, do they develop themselves, do they care about others, do they do good deeds for others, etc...
I don't have all of the answers, but I think God wants people to have freewill and that can't happen if he is always there breathing down your neck.
Scientific studies show that people behave differently when they know that they are on camera. Reality TV? It isn't real. Cameras all over London is believed to have prevented crime, when people can see that they are being watched it limits their choices. Scientific studies show that people drive differently when there is a cop driving behind him. On and on...
You can't truly have freewill with God.....opaquely in front of you. Just as your freewill to drive as you please is diminished with a cop behind you.
Freewill is a magical right in and of itself, but unfortunately it includes the right to do evil.
Life on earth is short, but life itself is eternal.
This will make me sound not intelligent to you, but during expectant waiting I sit in the silence in the woods alone without noise and I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart. A great sense of warmth and in the light shining off the trees. I know he is real and loving and he tells me to help other people. He wants us to choose with our freewill to love and serve all humans regardless of creed or group.
As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself. And by loving others you fulfill all commandments.
Well that is fine. I just don't enjoy being told that I am "pretending" to be a Christian/Quaker. My belief is sincere and I try to lead a good life in a very difficult world.
My bf is an atheist. We are both good people trying to do our best.
Arguably one of the biggest points of George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends, was that no government should have control over religion nor push it. Hence when Quakers came to the new world unlike the Puritans we didn't tie in religious requirements to the community living.
So...my point is it is a bit of an oxymoron I would say to have Quakerism being an official religion pushed on others....the point is that people shouldn't be forced on how they interact (or not) with God.
I will be 19 towards the end of next month, but what does my age make a difference? I am a legal adult. My age doesn't mean I am naïve. My bf is 30...so what...age isn't that big of a deal....people's head, heart, and hands are more important. Do they have good thoughts, do they develop themselves, do they care about others, do they do good deeds for others, etc...
I don't have all of the answers, but I think God wants people to have freewill and that can't happen if he is always there breathing down your neck.
Scientific studies show that people behave differently when they know that they are on camera. Reality TV? It isn't real. Cameras all over London is believed to have prevented crime, when people can see that they are being watched it limits their choices. Scientific studies show that people drive differently when there is a cop driving behind him. On and on...
You can't truly have freewill with God.....opaquely in front of you. Just as your freewill to drive as you please is diminished with a cop behind you.
Freewill is a magical right in and of itself, but unfortunately it includes the right to do evil.
Life on earth is short, but life itself is eternal.
This will make me sound not intelligent to you, but during expectant waiting I sit in the silence in the woods alone without noise and I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart. A great sense of warmth and in the light shining off the trees. I know he is real and loving and he tells me to help other people. He wants us to choose with our freewill to love and serve all humans regardless of creed or group.
As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself. And by loving others you fulfill all commandments.
You are 18?!?
I've seen you comment before, and you seem plenty intelligent enough, but I'm not used to finding out anyone posting in this forum is as young as you are. In particular because of what I call my Cement Theory, you are a special case in my opinion. A young mind not yet cemented shut like so many of us older folks participating here.
Very curious to know what brought you to this forum. How did you come to know about it or decide to be a part?
Also if I may, part of what makes my Cement Theory hold true is the common religious inculcation of young ones. Were you born into a Christian/Quaker family or did you develop your beliefs outside of your family experience?
Well that is fine. I just don't enjoy being told that I am "pretending" to be a Christian/Quaker. My belief is sincere and I try to lead a good life in a very difficult world.
My bf is an atheist. We are both good people trying to do our best.
Arguably one of the biggest points of George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends, was that no government should have control over religion nor push it. Hence when Quakers came to the new world unlike the Puritans we didn't tie in religious requirements to the community living.
So...my point is it is a bit of an oxymoron I would say to have Quakerism being an official religion pushed on others....the point is that people shouldn't be forced on how they interact (or not) with God.
I will be 19 towards the end of next month, but what does my age make a difference? I am a legal adult. My age doesn't mean I am naïve. My bf is 30...so what...age isn't that big of a deal....people's head, heart, and hands are more important. Do they have good thoughts, do they develop themselves, do they care about others, do they do good deeds for others, etc...
I don't have all of the answers, but I think God wants people to have freewill and that can't happen if he is always there breathing down your neck.
Scientific studies show that people behave differently when they know that they are on camera. Reality TV? It isn't real. Cameras all over London is believed to have prevented crime, when people can see that they are being watched it limits their choices. Scientific studies show that people drive differently when there is a cop driving behind him. On and on...
You can't truly have freewill with God.....opaquely in front of you. Just as your freewill to drive as you please is diminished with a cop behind you.
Freewill is a magical right in and of itself, but unfortunately it includes the right to do evil.
Life on earth is short, but life itself is eternal.
This will make me sound not intelligent to you, but during expectant waiting I sit in the silence in the woods alone without noise and I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart. A great sense of warmth and in the light shining off the trees. I know he is real and loving and he tells me to help other people. He wants us to choose with our freewill to love and serve all humans regardless of creed or group.
As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself. And by loving others you fulfill all commandments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
You can't truly have freewill with God.....opaquely in front of you. Just as your freewill to drive as you please is diminished with a cop behind you.
Where exactly does the Bible extend any offer of "freewill?" What sort of freedom to make life choices do you suppose we would have if no God ever existed to begin with? I would suggest to you that if no God ever existed to begin with, we would have exactly the sort of freedom to make life choices that we actually seem to have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
Freewill is a magical right in and of itself, but unfortunately it includes the right to do evil.
Define "evil."
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
Life on earth is short, but life itself is eternal.
Is this a statement of observable fact, or a statement of "this is what I choose to believe?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
This will make me sound not intelligent to you, but during expectant waiting I sit in the silence in the woods alone without noise and I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart. A great sense of warmth and in the light shining off the trees. I know he is real and loving and he tells me to help other people. He wants us to choose with our freewill to love and serve all humans regardless of creed or group.
This statement makes you sound fully indoctrinated, rather than unintelligent.
If Jesus actually existed 2,000 years ago, he died like everyone else who lived 2,000 years ago. And like everyone else who lived 2,000 years ago, he is now nowhere to be found.
"I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart." -- QuakerBaker
Is this a statement of undeniable fact, or a statement of "this is what I was taught to expect, therefore this is what I choose to believe?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself. And by loving others you fulfill all commandments.
Is this a statement of fact, or a statement of "this is what I choose to believe?"
Here are the facts:
Matthew 22:
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The author of Gospel Matthew wrote that Jesus said "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Gospel Matthew was written anonymously several decades after the time the Gospels indicate that Jesus lived and died. Jesus himself wrote nothing!
So is the statement "As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself," a statement of undeniable fact, or a statement of "this is what I choose to believe?"
Well that is fine. I just don't enjoy being told that I am "pretending" to be a Christian/Quaker. My belief is sincere and I try to lead a good life in a very difficult world.
My bf is an atheist. We are both good people trying to do our best.
nipped for space ...
.
don't worry, many peoples counter for a lot of things is "you're a theist/atheist so you're wrong.". evidence of that claim? they don't want science is the discussion.
I also like how some think questioning one's beliefs is considered bad mo-jo. that should give a us clue into what we are actually dealing with. you friend and you may just be squirrels trying to get a nut. misleading people away from the best conclusions we have to maintain a statement of belief about god is a busted a nut.
I don't see what my age has to do with anything, either my points are valid or they are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I've seen you comment before, and you seem plenty intelligent enough, but I'm not used to finding out anyone posting in this forum is as young as you are. In particular because of what I call my Cement Theory, you are a special case in my opinion. A young mind not yet cemented shut like so many of us older folks participating here.
My brother actually is legitimately exceptionally intelligent. Those genes passed me over though. I've got better looks than him though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Very curious to know what brought you to this forum. How did you come to know about it or decide to be a part?
Embarrassing and I am opening a door to be criticized here... I have anxiety issues and I had a severe anxiety attack last June where I was being destructive to my health so I was seeking help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Also if I may, part of what makes my Cement Theory hold true is the common religious inculcation of young ones. Were you born into a Christian/Quaker family or did you develop your beliefs outside of your family experience?
My mother was very devout and a Quaker/Christian. My father became an atheists after she died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
Where exactly does the Bible extend any offer of "freewill?" What sort of freedom to make life choices do you suppose we would have if no God ever existed to begin with? I would suggest to you that if no God ever existed to begin with, we would have exactly the sort of freedom to make life choices that we actually seem to have.
Define "evil."
Is this a statement of observable fact, or a statement of "this is what I choose to believe?"
This statement makes you sound fully indoctrinated, rather than unintelligent.
If Jesus actually existed 2,000 years ago, he died like everyone else who lived 2,000 years ago. And like everyone else who lived 2,000 years ago, he is now nowhere to be found.
"I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart." -- QuakerBaker
Is this a statement of undeniable fact, or a statement of "this is what I was taught to expect, therefore this is what I choose to believe?"
Is this a statement of fact, or a statement of "this is what I choose to believe?"
Here are the facts:
Matthew 22:
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The author of Gospel Matthew wrote that Jesus said "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Gospel Matthew was written anonymously several decades after the time the Gospels indicate that Jesus lived and died. Jesus himself wrote nothing!
So is the statement "As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself," a statement of undeniable fact, or a statement of "this is what I choose to believe?"
There is a lot here.
Jesus promotes freewill by telling people to choose good.
Evil could have different definition based on the interpreter. Perhaps stealing someone's inalienable rights to the loss of liberty/freewill can be evil to an extent.
Evil could have different definition based on the interpreter. Perhaps stealing someone's inalienable rights to the loss of liberty/freewill can be evil to an extent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
Evil could have different definition based on the interpreter. Perhaps stealing someone's inalienable rights to the loss of liberty/freewill can be evil to an extent.
This is a good point. And I couldn't agree more. "Evil" is subject to the interpretation of each individual. That is because evil does not exist as a physical force in the world. Evil is a concept. Essentially an opinion. The things that most of us would agree are "evil" are to be found almost exclusively in the terrible things that humans do to other humans. So let's the two of us attempt to reach agreement on the definition of "evil."
To take an extreme example, would you agree that disemboweling and decapitating babies is an evil act? And that anyone who would disembowel and decapitate babies, or who would advocate the disemboweling and decapitating of babies, represents the definition of that which is evil?
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No, I shan't be asking questions as (from what heard from a Quaker that I worked with) you people are not a problem for we goddless bastards (which is a term that I use rather than others).
....It ISN'T true. Any of it. I challenge you, just like someone challenged me 8 years or so ago in the Christian forum, I challenge you to tell me a single instance that can be scientifically verified where God miraculously intervened in a person's life to change it for the better. I think you will, if you're honest, reflect on it and say, "You know I cannot."
I really want to know how the mind of a good person like yourself manages to separate the two and still maintain their faith. 
