Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (Israelites, Moses, church)
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This is a good point. And I couldn't agree more. "Evil" is subject to the interpretation of each individual. That is because evil does not exist as a physical force in the world. Evil is a concept. Essentially an opinion. The things that most of us would agree are "evil" are to be found almost exclusively in the terrible things that humans do to other humans. So let's the two of us attempt to reach agreement on the definition of "evil."
To take an extreme example, would you agree that disemboweling and decapitating babies is an evil act? And that anyone who would disembowel and decapitate babies, or who would advocate the disemboweling and decapitating of babies, represents the definition of that which is evil?
You're just trying to trap her, not determine a valid definition.
I will be 19 towards the end of next month, but what does my age make a difference? I am a legal adult. My age doesn't mean I am naïve. My bf is 30...so what...age isn't that big of a deal....
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Freewill is a magical right in and of itself, but unfortunately it includes the right to do evil.
....
This will make me sound not intelligent to you, but during expectant waiting I sit in the silence in the woods alone without noise and I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart. A great sense of warmth and in the light shining off the trees. I know he is real and loving and he tells me to help other people. He wants us to choose with our freewill to love and serve all humans regardless of creed or group.
Your respective ages can work very well, and no, your age is no big deal. But it is rather nice. And your points are valid.
Free will gives us the ability to do evil, not the right, in my opinion. The kind of evil that thrill mentions is infringing on someone else's rights.
Your experience in the quiet of the woods is interesting.
You know Quaker (I spelled it right this time ), I think you are a great ambassador for Quakers.
Well that is fine. I just don't enjoy being told that I am "pretending" to be a Christian/Quaker. My belief is sincere and I try to lead a good life in a very difficult world.
My bf is an atheist. We are both good people trying to do our best.
Arguably one of the biggest points of George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends, was that no government should have control over religion nor push it. Hence when Quakers came to the new world unlike the Puritans we didn't tie in religious requirements to the community living.
So...my point is it is a bit of an oxymoron I would say to have Quakerism being an official religion pushed on others....the point is that people shouldn't be forced on how they interact (or not) with God.
I will be 19 towards the end of next month, but what does my age make a difference? I am a legal adult. My age doesn't mean I am naïve. My bf is 30...so what...age isn't that big of a deal....people's head, heart, and hands are more important. Do they have good thoughts, do they develop themselves, do they care about others, do they do good deeds for others, etc...
I don't have all of the answers, but I think God wants people to have freewill and that can't happen if he is always there breathing down your neck.
Scientific studies show that people behave differently when they know that they are on camera. Reality TV? It isn't real. Cameras all over London is believed to have prevented crime, when people can see that they are being watched it limits their choices. Scientific studies show that people drive differently when there is a cop driving behind him. On and on...
You can't truly have freewill with God.....opaquely in front of you. Just as your freewill to drive as you please is diminished with a cop behind you.
Freewill is a magical right in and of itself, but unfortunately it includes the right to do evil.
Life on earth is short, but life itself is eternal.
This will make me sound not intelligent to you, but during expectant waiting I sit in the silence in the woods alone without noise and I can feel Jesus come to me in my heart. A great sense of warmth and in the light shining off the trees. I know he is real and loving and he tells me to help other people. He wants us to choose with our freewill to love and serve all humans regardless of creed or group.
As Jesus said the most important commandment was to Love God and Love others as yourself. And by loving others you fulfill all commandments.
>>>>>>My age doesn't mean I am naïve. This will make me sound not intelligent to you...."
No, it doesn't make you sound, "not intelligent", Quaker. It just makes you sound....well...naïve.
It's interesting that when Christians are confronted with questions that are too demanding for their faith they resort to the "free will" thing. I often ask them, "What about the victim's free will? Is the victim exercising their free will to be victimized?" That usually stops a Christian cold. Hopefully, it makes the Christian question their adherence to this free will nonsense. In your case, I fear it didn't.
I know about the "washing over my being with Jesus' love" thing". I used to get that all the time too. I later came to realize it was just the release of "feel good" endorphins my brain was releasing in the surge of emotion I was feeling. If this is your proof that Jesus exists and is moving in the world to help people in trouble, I can assure you that the victims of perpetrators aren't getting these same rushes of "Praise Jesus for his wonderful love" that you are. Maybe as time goes on and you mature you'll grow out of this naïvety cycle you're trapped in and come to see the error of your thinking process. I have my doubts but miracles do happen.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 05-17-2020 at 02:23 PM..
>>>>>>This will make me sound not intelligent to you...."
No, it doesn't make you sound, "not intelligent", Quaker. It just makes you sound....well...naïve.
It's interesting that when Christians are confronted with questions that are too demanding for their faith they resort to the "free will" thing. I often ask them, "What about the victim's free will? Is the victim exercising their free will to be victimized?" That usually stops a Christian cold. Hopefully, it makes the Christian question their adherence to this free will nonsense. In your case, I fear it didn't.
I know about the "washing over my being with Jesus' love" thing". I used to get that all the time too. I later came to realize it was just the release of "feel good" endorphins my brain was releasing in the surge of emotion I was feeling. If this is your proof that Jesus exists and is moving in the world to help people in trouble, I can assure you that the victims of perpetrators aren't getting these same rushes of "Praise Jesus for his wonderful love" that you are. Maybe as time goes on and you mature you'll grow out of this naïvety cycle you're trapped in and come to see the error of your thinking process. I have my doubts but miracles do happen.
I had a person ask me "I kind of think we are too easy on these guys?" I asked them "what could I guy like me have told you 25 years ago to tell you that how you approach this is wrong?" they said "probably nothing."
I think I asked you before. What could of a guy like me have told you 35 45 years ago? Do you think me telling you taht "your biblegod is nothing but a evil devil" would have worked?
You're just trying to trap her, not determine a valid definition.
If I am attempting to "trap her," it is entirely a trap composed of elements of her own beliefs and assumptions. Is pointing that out somehow taking advantage of her? Or is it a way of examining her ability to think through the things she believes that she believes in?
"Let's the two of us attempt to reach agreement on the definition of 'evil'
"For example, would you agree that disemboweling and decapitating babies is an evil act. And that anyone who would disembowel and decapitate babies, or who would advocate the disemboweling and decapitating of babies is evil? "
This seems to me to be a very valid and pertinent question.
Free will gives us the ability to do evil, not the right, in my opinion. The kind of evil that thrill mentions is infringing on someone else's rights.
Your experience in the quiet of the woods is interesting.
Good catch smarty pants!
I should have said ability and not right there.
As far as expectant waiting, you just have to get away from sounds so you can listen deep into yourself and try to make a connection to God, which binds us all together. It is very therapeutic. Almost everywhere you go you can hear sounds from man, lawn mowers, cars, airplanes, boat motors, etc... Just get out in nature and listen far away from man made sounds and try to connect in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
>>>>>>This will make me sound not intelligent to you...."
No, it doesn't make you sound, "not intelligent", Quaker. It just makes you sound....well...naïve.
It's interesting that when Christians are confronted with questions that are too demanding for their faith they resort to the "free will" thing. I often ask them, "What about the victim's free will? Is the victim exercising their free will to be victimized?" That usually stops a Christian cold. Hopefully, it makes the Christian question their adherence to this free will nonsense. In your case, I fear it didn't.
I know about the "washing over my being with Jesus' love" thing". I used to get that all the time too. I later came to realize it was just the release of "feel good" endorphins my brain was releasing in the surge of emotion I was feeling. If this is your proof that Jesus exists and is moving in the world to help people in trouble, I can assure you that the victims of perpetrators aren't getting these same rushes of "Praise Jesus for his wonderful love" that you are. Maybe as time goes on and you mature you'll grow out of this naïvety cycle you're trapped in and come to see the error of your thinking process. I have my doubts but miracles do happen.
I don't understand how freewill must not allow someone the right to intrude upon someone else's freewill. It seems like true freewill must allow for the possibility of evil choices. Then again, I am so immature and so naiive, so....I guess that is why I have error processes in my brain. Well I do have severe anxiety and esteem issues... I hope I haven't talked down to you and that is why you are doing it to me. I respect your ability to disagree with me and retain your personhood and esteem.
P.S. About two and a half years ago as a junior I was visiting some girls from my high school already in college where I was sexually assaulted, I never once stopped my love for Jesus. I am not perfect and I still resent that school a bit, but I don't see your point. I exercised my freewill during and after the attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
This is a good point. And I couldn't agree more. "Evil" is subject to the interpretation of each individual. That is because evil does not exist as a physical force in the world. Evil is a concept. Essentially an opinion. The things that most of us would agree are "evil" are to be found almost exclusively in the terrible things that humans do to other humans. So let's the two of us attempt to reach agreement on the definition of "evil."
To take an extreme example, would you agree that disemboweling and decapitating babies is an evil act? And that anyone who would disembowel and decapitate babies, or who would advocate the disemboweling and decapitating of babies, represents the definition of that which is evil?
You just stated that you think evil is a subjective opinion - so what makes you think that the two of us could reach some perfect agreement on the definition of evil.
Since you are talking about killing babies.... I am Pro-Life, which some find evil in and of itself. I am Pro-Life on Abortion, Pro-Life against the Death Penalty, Pro-Life for a national healthcare system, and Pro-Life as a vegetarian. I believe there is a certain value in promoting life, quality of life, and especially for those that are weaker.
If you were to disagree with me on any or all of my Pro-Life positions, I wouldn't think that makes you evil or less of a person. All of those issues are complicated with shades of gray. I haven't walked in other people's shoes and can't always see what they see. Many smart and honest people disagree with me on those. As you stated, much of it is subjective and opinionated.
If I am attempting to "trap her," it is entirely a trap composed of elements of her own beliefs and assumptions. Is pointing that out somehow taking advantage of her? Or is it a way of examining her ability to think through the things she believes that she believes in?
"Let's the two of us attempt to reach agreement on the definition of 'evil'
"For example, would you agree that disemboweling and decapitating babies is an evil act. And that anyone who would disembowel and decapitate babies, or who would advocate the disemboweling and decapitating of babies is evil? "
This seems to me to be a very valid and pertinent question.
While what I bolded is something I also believe, I don't think it's a very good way to begin a reasoned discussion.
>>>>>>My age doesn't mean I am naïve. This will make me sound not intelligent to you...."
No, it doesn't make you sound, "not intelligent", Quaker. It just makes you sound....well...naïve.
It's interesting that when Christians are confronted with questions that are too demanding for their faith they resort to the "free will" thing. I often ask them, "What about the victim's free will? Is the victim exercising their free will to be victimized?" That usually stops a Christian cold. Hopefully, it makes the Christian question their adherence to this free will nonsense. In your case, I fear it didn't.
I know about the "washing over my being with Jesus' love" thing". I used to get that all the time too. I later came to realize it was just the release of "feel good" endorphins my brain was releasing in the surge of emotion I was feeling. If this is your proof that Jesus exists and is moving in the world to help people in trouble, I can assure you that the victims of perpetrators aren't getting these same rushes of "Praise Jesus for his wonderful love" that you are. Maybe as time goes on and you mature you'll grow out of this naïvety cycle you're trapped in and come to see the error of your thinking process. I have my doubts but miracles do happen.
I think you're confusing the whole idea of "free will" with choice, especially in the biblical sense...
I had a person ask me "I kind of think we are too easy on these guys?" I asked them "what could I guy like me have told you 25 years ago to tell you that how you approach this is wrong?" they said "probably nothing."
I think I asked you before. What could of a guy like me have told you 35 45 years ago? Do you think me telling you taht "your biblegod is nothing but a evil devil" would have worked?
You're right. 35-40 years ago I wouldn't have listened because I just wasn't ready to receive the truth like I am now. The fact I am is a result of two factors: maturity and the Internet. The Internet is the greatest anti-Christian tool out there, to the despair of Christians. The Internet is responsible for the single biggest drop in Christianity in the last 25 years. The Internet, along with the Bible itself, will be the two greatest powers to vanquish Christianity from the face of the earth. Give them 50 years when the present generation has died off for this to happen.
QuakerBaker may be 18, s/he may be 80--who knows. I've seen 80 year olds (mostly men) call themselves 18 on forums, I've seen 18 year olds (rare) call themselves 80. Anything is possible in the shady anonymous world of the Internet. Even with a photo you can't really believe anyone. So are we too easy on her (or him)? Impossible to say.
You're right. 35-40 years ago I wouldn't have listened because I just wasn't ready to receive the truth like I am now. The fact I am is a result of two factors: maturity and the Internet. The Internet is the greatest anti-Christian tool out there, to the despair of Christians. The Internet is responsible for the single biggest drop in Christianity in the last 25 years. The Internet, along with the Bible itself, will be the two greatest powers to vanquish Christianity from the face of the earth. Give them 50 years when the present generation has died off for this to happen.
QuakerBaker may be 18, s/he may be 80--who knows. I've seen 80 year olds (mostly men) call themselves 18 on forums, I've seen 18 year olds (rare) call themselves 80. Anything is possible in the shady anonymous world of the Internet. Even with a photo you can't really believe anyone. So are we too easy on her (or him)? Impossible to say.
Why are you so harsh? In the other post you've used words like naiivity, error thinking, lack of maturity. I don't believe that I have done a thing to you.
Do you treat people this way face to face too?
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And your points are valid.
), I think you are a great ambassador for Quakers. 
I hope I haven't talked down to you and that is why you are doing it to me. I respect your ability to disagree with me and retain your personhood and esteem.
