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None of those verses you posted counter the argument that the soul goes to be with God. They're all speaking of physical death. The body will perish, to be resurrected later.
There is NO scripture that states "the soul goes to be with God".
What the Bible DOES say is that the spirit or the breath that God breathed into the human to activate that human to life (to become a living soul) will return to God at death. What God chooses to do with that life-giving breath is anyone's guess ...perhaps He puts it in a bottle, labels and corks it before returning it to its owner on resurrection day.
While I realize that we're discussing allegorical accounts of the Bible (nonsense to some) it would probably be helpful that we at least get it right according to the book. And, that is that death equates to 'sleep' where those who are 'asleep' will remain in that condition until awoken and raised from their graves on resurrection day. Nowhere does the Bible state that there are those that are presently in heaven experiencing eternal bliss or that there are those that are presently in hell experiencing everlasting torment. And, if THAT is what your church teaches and it sickens you - as it should! - then you probably need to find yourself another church.
Question ...why, BF, does the belief - as per the Bible - that the dead are 'sleeping in their graves' irk you to the point of your calling those who adhere to this belief 'heretics'?
So if to " perish " is a fate so benign as to actually be constructive in assuaging fears and providing soul comfort what was this business of Mount Calvary all about ?
So if to " perish " is a fate so benign as to actually be constructive in assuaging fears and providing soul comfort what was this business of Mount Calvary all about ?
Well, from the average Christian perspective it comes down to those who do and those who do not believe in the act at Calvary that determines their 'fate'.
So if to " perish " is a fate so benign as to actually be constructive in assuaging fears and providing soul comfort what was this business of Mount Calvary all about ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Well, from the average Christian perspective it comes down to those who do and those who do not believe in the act at Calvary that determines their 'fate'.
I'm speaking to your studied understanding of the bible you have expounded on in this thread which if I understand you right says both that Jesus came to provide a sacrifice for sin making a way for heaven if you are into that.
However if you are really not into it ,with the option to " perish ", ( John 3:16 ), God has also provide an alternate sensibly serene and peaceful finish as well , in addition to providing immediate comfort for the soul, and assuaging all fears of death here and now .
You do believe that to " perish " in the biblical meaning, ( John 3:16) is a no call that essentially equals an eternal no harm an foul, correct?
I'm speaking to your studied understanding of the bible you have expounded on in this thread which if I understand you right says both that Jesus came to provide a sacrifice for sin making a way for heaven if you are into that.
Yes, IF 'you are into that', imputed righteousness is a Christian concept proposing that the 'righteousness of Christ' is imputed to 'believers'. It's on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts 'sinful humans'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMDolan
However if you are really not into it ,with the option to " perish ", ( John 3:16 ), God has also provided an alternate sensibly serene and peaceful finish as well , in addition to providing immediate comfort for the soul, and assuaging all fears of death here and now.
You do believe that to " perish " in the biblical meaning, ( John 3:16) is a no call that essentially equals an eternal no harm an foul, correct?
Well, John 3:16 pretty much reads along the lines of 'no harm no foul'. It doesn't remotely imply that eternal suffering awaits the 'unbeliever'.
There is NO scripture that states "the soul goes to be with God".
2 Cor 5:8 "So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord."
Did you not read my post where I quoted this?
Quote:
What the Bible DOES say is that the spirit or the breath that God breathed into the human to activate that human to life (to become a living soul) will return to God at death. What God chooses to do with that life-giving breath is anyone's guess ...perhaps He puts it in a bottle, labels and corks it before returning it to its owner on resurrection day.
You don't believe we have a soul, do you? We are 3 parts. We have a body, soul, and spirit.
1 Thess 5:22 "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Quote:
While I realize that we're discussing allegorical accounts of the Bible (nonsense to some) it would probably be helpful that we at least get it right according to the book. And, that is that death equates to 'sleep' where those who are 'asleep' will remain in that condition until awoken and raised from their graves on resurrection day. Nowhere does the Bible state that there are those that are presently in heaven experiencing eternal bliss or that there are those that are presently in hell experiencing everlasting torment. And, if THAT is what your church teaches and it sickens you - as it should! - then you probably need to find yourself another church.
Question ...why, BF, does the belief - as per the Bible - that the dead are 'sleeping in their graves' irk you to the point of your calling those who adhere to this belief 'heretics'?
The BODY is sleeping. The soul is most definitely alive. Paul said that a believer's spirit is with the Lord. Why don't you believe it?
So if to " perish " is a fate so benign as to actually be constructive in assuaging fears and providing soul comfort what was this business of Mount Calvary all about ?[/QUOTE
Well, John 3:16 pretty much reads along the lines of 'no harm no foul'. It doesn't remotely imply that eternal suffering awaits the 'unbeliever'.
Okay well then we have come full circle back to my question based upon your stated understanding then.
If the scripture clearly states that to " perish " is no big deal in the eternal plan, and in fact could even serve
to provide soul assurance to those who want to opt out of heaven, why all the drama about Mount Calvary ?
Given your clear understanding that the choice between heaven or to perish is actually a matter of preference not punishment , six of one, maybe a little less than half a dozen of the other, then wouldn't you agree the whole sweating great drops of Blood in the Garden, the last supper, the betrayal, Rising from the dead, etc,etc,etc, & etc,,, is in context oddly way out of place in over the top overkill that really amounts to much ado about very little eternal difference ?
The whole determined salvation emphasis being way overboard if all we are talking about is people simply opting to go to sleep eternally ?
Why would anyone need to be saved, in such over the top dramatic fashion, from that ?
Spirit and Soul are very similar terms, almost mutually interchangeable.
But to me the Soul is the entity that lives on forever.
This is what I was given to understand but to me it leaves 'spirit' hanging in the air. Many pages back I posted a biblical definition of soul and spirit and it was that the soul is the life of the body and the spirit was the consciousness or mind. That makes more sense to me but contradicts the soul the entity that lives forever - or does it? Surely the soul without the spirit is meaningless? Or does the soul carry the spirit?
OK, I'm not sure this question relates to the topic of this thread but there has to be something that 'goes to hell' so to speak. So does the spirit go to hell or only the soul?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMDolan
Okay well then we have come full circle back to my question based upon your stated understanding then.
If the scripture clearly states that to " perish " is no big deal in the eternal plan, and in fact could even serve
to provide soul assurance to those who want to opt out of heaven, why all the drama about Mount Calvary ?
Given your clear understanding that the choice between heaven or to perish is actually a matter of preference not punishment , six of one, maybe a little less than half a dozen of the other, then wouldn't you agree the whole sweating great drops of Blood in the Garden, the last supper, the betrayal, Rising from the dead, etc,etc,etc, & etc,,, is in context oddly way out of place in over the top overkill that really amounts to much ado about very little eternal difference ?
The whole determined salvation emphasis being way overboard if all we are talking about is people simply opting to go to sleep eternally ?
Why would anyone need to be saved, in such over the top dramatic fashion, from that ?
That is a good question.
Could it be that we cannot comprehend non existence? Sleep we can understand and being alive and conscious we can understand.
There is NO scripture that states "the soul goes to be with God".
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie"
2 Cor 5:8 "So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord."
Did you not read my post where I quoted this?
I'm well aware of what YOU get from the text by Paul that appears to contradict all of the other passages of scripture contained in post #173. However, I repeat ...there is NO scripture that states that, "at death, the soul goes to be with God."
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
What the Bible DOES say is that the spirit or the breath that God breathed into the human to activate that human to life (to become a living soul) will return to God at death. What God chooses to do with that life-giving breath is anyone's guess ...perhaps He puts it in a bottle, labels and corks it before returning it to its owner on resurrection day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie"
You don't believe we have a soul, do you? We are 3 parts. We have a body, soul, and spirit.
1 Thess 5:22 "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body. Nowhere does it refer to the soul as being 'immortal'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
While I realize that we're discussing allegorical accounts of the Bible (nonsense to some) it would probably be helpful that we at least get it right according to the book. And, that is that death equates to 'sleep' where those who are 'asleep' will remain in that condition until awoken and raised from their graves on resurrection day. Nowhere does the Bible state that there are those that are presently in heaven experiencing eternal bliss or that there are those that are presently in hell experiencing everlasting torment. And, if THAT is what your church teaches and it sickens you - as it should! - then you probably need to find yourself another church.
Question ...why, BF, does the belief - as per the Bible - that the dead are 'sleeping in their graves' irk you to the point of your calling those who adhere to this belief 'heretics'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie"
The BODY is sleeping. The soul is most definitely alive. Paul said that a believer's spirit is with the Lord.
I don't care what you think Paul said. I repeat ...the only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body. Nowhere does it refer to the soul as being 'immortal'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie"
Why don't you believe it?
Because it doesn't align with what the scriptures CONSISTENTLY say about the topic. Why else?
But anyway, why would it bother you that the dead are 'asleep' in their graves awaiting resurrection ...just as the Bible states? Doesn't it sound like a sensible plan that all are raised to receive eternal life at the same time?
Also, do YOU believe that the 'unrighteous dead' will receive the penalty of literal eternal torment? I don't know if anyone has asked you that question previously but I'm interested in receiving an answer from you if you don't mind.
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