Believers in eternal torment, how does that sit with your own morals? (salvation, last supper)
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Not to be pedantic but the Bible nowhere states that anyone goes straight to heaven at death. This is just another belief based on biblical ignorance, a sad fact (ignorance) that abounds within Christendom.
Just putting that out there. As you were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:8 "So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord."
Then, of course, is the story Jesus told of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man. Lazarus was welcomed into his reward right away--not a future time.
And, of course, Jesus telling the repentant thief on the cross next to him that he'd be with him that day in paradise.
Well, below are some Bible verses for you to mull through that CONSISTENTLY refer to death as 'sleep' from both the Old as well as the New Testament. You either believe the below or you prefer to believe the erroneous tenets of your particular church.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,
Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.
Mark 5:39
And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."
Luke 8:52-53
Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep."
1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.
1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.
1 Kings 14:20
The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.
1 Kings 16:6
And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.
1 Kings 22:50
And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 14:16
So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 15:7
And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 16:20
So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.
2 Kings 20:21
So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 21:18
And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Psalm 17:15
As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
Psalm 76:5
The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…
The last passage of scripture in particular from your buddy, Paul, is clearly speaking to the resurrection of the dead (those who 'sleep' in their graves') when Jesus returns AND NOT BEFORE!
To believe in literal eternal torment the one in torment would have to be a living being FOR all eternity. Now, while I'm well aware that many Christians are SO in ignorance of the very Bible they claim to uphold - it's actually quite appalling! - a very famous scripture (John 3:16) tells us all quite clearly that only the righteous receive eternal life while those who do not PERISH. Now, unless one's definition of 'perish' is different from my understanding of the word it seems obvious beyond any doubt that eternal torment is not only a heinous belief for any decent human being to hold to but it's also NOT TRUE!
To believe in literal eternal torment the one in torment would have to be a living being FOR all eternity. Now, while I'm well aware that many Christians are SO in ignorance of the very Bible they claim to uphold - it's actually quite appalling! - a very famous scripture (John 3:16) tells us all quite clearly that only the righteous receive eternal life while those who do not PERISH. Now, unless one's definition of 'perish' is different from my understanding of the word it seems obvious beyond any doubt that eternal torment is not only a heinous belief for any decent human being to hold to but it's also NOT TRUE!
I'd like to say that your Annihilation beliefs are ok, but they are still not the full picture.
In my view the Soul is eternal and immortal.
It thus cannot be destroyed.
But Hell is still a hell of a lot worse than Annihilation.
The teaching is absolutely abhorrent.
To believe in literal eternal torment the one in torment would have to be a living being FOR all eternity. Now, while I'm well aware that many Christians are SO in ignorance of the very Bible they claim to uphold - it's actually quite appalling! - a very famous scripture (John 3:16) tells us all quite clearly that only the righteous receive eternal life while those who do not PERISH. Now, unless one's definition of 'perish' is different from my understanding of the word it seems obvious beyond any doubt that eternal torment is not only a heinous belief for any decent human being to hold to but it's also NOT TRUE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41
I'd like to say that your Annihilation beliefs are ok, but they are still not the full picture.
In my view the Soul is eternal and immortal.
It thus cannot be destroyed.
But Hell is still a hell of a lot worse than Annihilation.
The teaching is absolutely abhorrent.
I think you probably mean the spirit or 'the breath' which at death, we are told, returns to God who gave it initially to create and to activate 'a living soul' (Genesis 2:7). Death is a reversal of the original creation of life ...including returning to dust.
There are those Christians who have invented their own term for the belief of other Christians who see quite clearly from a Bible perspective that the dead are presently 'sleeping' in their graves ...as per my post #173. That term - made up by them and NOT used by those in the 'the dead are sleeping in their graves' camp - is 'soul sleep'. They - those who believe that the dead go immediately to either heaven or hell at death - then use the term 'soul sleep' that THEY invented and use it to call the other believers 'heretics'.
During all of my past years with the SDA Church (who go by what the Bible has to say about death and its equating death with sleep) I have never heard the term 'soul sleep' used by anyone. Not that it would be such a big deal anyway even if they did. BUT, it seems to be that particular term that irks those such as BaptistFundie to the point where they/he will lash out and yell 'heretic'.
Two things ...one, why is the clear teaching in the Bible that those in their graves are asleep until the resurrection ignored by most Christians? And, two, why is the term 'soul sleep', a term not used by anyone but them, so offensive to them anyway? To me, the biblical teaching that the dead are asleep awaiting resurrection is SO non-offensive that I simply don't understand why this would irk anyone. Moreover, that everyone receives eternal life at the same time even makes sense ...if any of this makes any sense.
Well, below are some Bible verses for you to mull through that CONSISTENTLY refer to death as 'sleep' from both the Old as well as the New Testament. You either believe the below or you prefer to believe the erroneous tenets of your particular church.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,
Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.
Mark 5:39
And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."
Luke 8:52-53
Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep."
1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.
1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.
1 Kings 14:20
The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.
1 Kings 16:6
And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.
1 Kings 22:50
And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 14:16
So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 15:7
And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 16:20
So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.
2 Kings 20:21
So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 21:18
And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Psalm 17:15
As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
Psalm 76:5
The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…
The last passage of scripture in particular from your buddy, Paul, is clearly speaking to the resurrection of the dead (those who 'sleep' in their graves') when Jesus returns AND NOT BEFORE!
None of those verses you posted counter the argument that the soul goes to be with God. They're all speaking of physical death. The body will perish, to be resurrected later.
I think you probably mean the spirit or 'the breath' which at death, we are told, returns to God who gave it initially to create and to activate 'a living soul' (Genesis 2:7). Death is a reversal of the original creation of life ...including returning to dust.
Spirit and Soul are very similar terms, almost mutually interchangeable.
But to me the Soul is the entity that lives on forever.
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