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This is like when someone tweets that they're leaving because of Elon Musk....then they continue to bash on him and everyone else for the next month.
Are you that desperate for attention?
If you're truly confident in your version of God, Jesus, the Bible etc. then why be bothered by it? If you believe the true belief system, then no external influence is going to change that reality. There are lots more of us who left church for various reasons and there's no reason why our stories shouldn't be heard. One of my hugest frustrations growing up in church was people who held your same viewpoint, that only their religious belief system was correct and any opportunity to provide contrary evidence was shut down.
My entire childhood revolved around Christianity. I grew up going to the same fundamental evangelical church and went to the attached school from Kindergarten on and graduated high school there. As I got into my teens, I had questions...lots of questions. Christians can't seem to answer any of the big questions that cast a shadow onto peoples' beliefs in Christianity. They always seem to revert back to "because the Bible says" or it "takes faith" or "I know because of the Holy Spirit in me" types of answers. For any real truth seeker who wants to understand his/her faith, it becomes futile mission if you're trying to get answers from other Christians.
Add to that the fact that I always felt that my own personal moral principles didn't align with the morality I grew up being taught and I knew I couldn't in good conscience continue going to church or calling myself a Christian. After becoming a dad, more nails were added to my religious coffin. It now seemed so absurd to me how a loving god would damn all of humanity for simply not holding a specific belief system that requires an incredible amount of blind faith in order to not be sent to eternal punishment after death. I can't fathom a "Father God" who would do that to his creation. As a parent, I can't imagine separating my child from me and punishing them for eternity simply because they "sin" or aren't believing in me or worshiping me a certain way. I honestly feel that the god in the Bible is ridiculously narcissistic.
I actually do believe in God still. I'm not so arrogant and dogmatic though to insist that my view of God is the only accurate view of him and anybody who believes differently than me is wrong. I know nothing of God. I do believe in him and I pray regularly. I get answers to my prayers as well...even being the heathen that I am!
I recently decided to come out as gay to my family and friends. Throughout my entire childhood I was basically taught that people like me were flawed and an abomination and would be damned to Hell for all eternity. Overcoming that irrational fear of eternal damnation and punishment for simply choosing to love who I want to love is completely liberating. To finally be my authentic self is something I wish I would've done years ago. There are many people dealing with many different "sins" and they are too afraid to be their authentic selves because Christians will ostracize them. I'm finally at a place where I can confidently pray to God and know that he's listening and I'm not going to Hell...regardless of what any fundy tells me.
People who don't believe in Christianity and are engaging in this discussion aren't "desperate for attention". We just don't believe what you believe. If what you believe really is truth, then we're not a threat to you. You should be fully confident to hear our viewpoints. Many of us non-believers used to be very devout believers and we chose to take our blinders off to things that made no sense. If something doesn't make sense, it's usually because it doesn't make any sense.
My entire childhood revolved around Christianity. I grew up going to the same fundamental evangelical church and went to the attached school from Kindergarten on and graduated high school there.
Same here re: life revolving around that belief system; although I went to public schools, I did go on to their bible institute.
It was bad enough being straight as an arrow; I can't imagine what it would be like to be gay AND ex-fundamentalist.
I regret telling you that despite not having any unapproved desires or relationships but objecting purely for epistemological reasons, I never got credit for having good and considered reasons for leaving that anyone would actually make an effort to understand. So don't hold your breath ;-)
I would add that for me it's not bombast or self-aggrandizement that motivated me to leave. It is a pure statement of fact that I want others to know: I have the truth and I'm big on the truth. Christians cannot readily say that they have the truth if they are honest with themselves. Finding out that Jesus of the Bible was a myth wasn't the catalyzing event for me for leaving Christianity. It was the mountains and mountains of evidence that support the conclusion Jesus is a myth and the fact that Christians couldn't offer a single solid piece of evidence in support of Jesus being real that clinched it for me. I had no choice but to leave.
Let's talk about the Catholic hierarchy of the 2nd century squeezing John 20:23
"If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
into the text that they figured would give them absolute authority to establish the sacrament of penance and the confessional so that they could tell the church members that they and ONLY they had they power to forgive sins--that it couldn't be done by praying directly to God for forgiveness--and that if you died with a mortal sin on your soul and didn't get to the priest in time to confess before dying you went straight to hell to die in terrible torment forever in eternal flames.
Let's talk about 14th Century priesthoods and indulgences. Did not the existence of human gatekeepers create a whole lot of corruption potential
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Let's also talk about how the Catholic hierarchy used the confessional booth as a kind of way to ferret out information from people who had friends and relatives who were secretly worshiping pagan gods so that their Vatican guard could then arrest and torture these pagan worshipers into confessing Jesus or be executed.
I would assume, as well, for more political purposes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
In just about everything you can mention about the Catholic faith from its inception to the Reformation the Catholic church was about one thing: maintaining the power and privilege and wealth of the church and its popes, cardinals, and bishops who lived in splendor. It was all about the $$$$$'s. Always has been. It was never about saving souls.
The Catholic hierarchy couldn't have cared less whether a person was saved or not.
Playing devil's advocate, hasn't the weakening of this system devastated church finances. Even Judaism, without these issues, has been having its issues financially. If religion is separated from the state, and religions cannot more or less extort moneys, what's the incentive to sustain it? Personally, between synagogue dues (about $4200) and other Jewish causes I spend about $5000 a year. Pre-pandemic that was more like $8000 a year but I refuse to splurge on Zoom presentations.
...having good and considered reasons for leaving that anyone would actually make an effort to understand.
That's exactly what it is. A person can rattle off a whole laundry list of reasons--good reasons--why they chose to give up religion and all you'll get in response, at least from Christians are half-baked threats of what will happen to you in the afterlife if you do. Like one member here who's constantly threatening me with "Just you wait and see. When you're standing before Jesus in judgement and you have to explain to him why you mocked and ridiculed him and he has to pass judgement on you and send you to hell then you'll find out what a mistake you made."
I mean this bloke talks like he really believes this is how it's all going to go down for heretics after they die. But when you ask a Christian for some proof for all of this all they can respond is, "It's in the Bible. You can read it there."
Seems if God heard their prayers and saved your life (via a doctor) - and you still ditched Him anyway,
no wonder He wouldn't answer any more of your prayers - if that's how you thank Him for saving you - sheesh!
Reminds me of that old classic joke - an old farmers property/house floods, and the farmer prays up to God.
A man in a boat, some men in a bigger boat, and even a helicopter come to rescue the old man as the water keeps rising and the old man sends them away each time saying he's putting his trust in God.
Water keeps rising and old man eventually drowns and goes to heaven.
God sees him and asks 'What are you doing here?'
Old man says I put my trust in you and you let me down.
God says 'whadda ya mean I let you down, I sent two boats and even a helicopter!'
That's what I thought of when I read the OP's story. It appears his faith rested in his own understanding, not in God. As in proverbs, "Trust in the Lord, and lean not on your own understanding". That isn't often taught in church anymore.
When my husband passed away suddenly and unexpectedly a few years ago on Christmas Eve morning, I would have ditched the faith believing God to be a cruel tyrant if I did not understand the doctrines of the Christian faith as I do. Thank God my faith rests in Jesus and nothing else (even if there's "no proof" for His existence. The Devil is the ruler of this world. He will make sure those who are open to his attacks will figure out about this "lack" of proof).
That's exactly what it is. A person can rattle off a whole laundry list of reasons--good reasons--why they chose to give up religion and all you'll get in response, at least from Christians are half-baked threats of what will happen to you in the afterlife if you do. Like one member here who's constantly threatening me with "Just you wait and see. When you're standing before Jesus in judgement and you have to explain to him why you mocked and ridiculed him and he has to pass judgement on you and send you to hell then you'll find out what a mistake you made."
I mean this bloke talks like he really believes this is how it's all going to go down for heretics after they die. But when you ask a Christian for some proof for all of this all they can respond is, "It's in the Bible. You can read it there."
Great post. I'm Jewish, so Christ isn't an issue, and I haven't heard of someone making a parallel threat. On the other hand when I was in my foolish and depressed years in college, a Jewish Residence Advisor hinted at such a possibility, or that pain might continue, after death. I didn't take that seriously. I took other advice, such as to switch majors, more seriously though and am still here a bit less than 47 years later.
lol That excuse doesn't work too well for the millions of parents who pray for their child's cancer to be cured and the child dies anyway, does it? Explain that one.
Right. When my husband suffered a massive stroke for no apparent reason, I guess I should have been like, "Well God's just not working the way I want Him to, so F-- him, I'm out of here". That's not what a believer does. God doesn't work for you and He may put things in your life that you definitely don't want to happen. We submit to God's will in our life trusting that no matter what it seems like to our understanding, all things do work to good for those who love the Lord.
My husband suffering an unexplained stroke on Christmas Eve morning and passing away without ever being able to speak to me again was ultimately for my own (and his own) good, though I'll never know why that is in this life. But for me I will be with my husband again and all my brothers and sisters in Jesus in just a short while (for this life is so very brief).
If I didn't have this hope, I would have taken my own life years ago.
Right. When my husband suffered a massive stroke for no apparent reason, I guess I should have been like, "Well God's just not working the way I want Him to, so F-- him, I'm out of here". That's not what a believer does. God doesn't work for you and He may put things in your life that you definitely don't want to happen. We submit to God's will in our life trusting that no matter what it seems like to our understanding, all things do work to good for those who love the Lord.
My husband suffering an unexplained stroke on Christmas Eve morning and passing away without ever being able to speak to me again was ultimately for my own (and his own) good, though I'll never know why that is in this life. But for me I will be with my husband again and all my brothers and sisters in Jesus in just a short while (for this life is so very brief).
If I didn't have this hope, I would have taken my own life years ago.
Along these lines, I read a book in early 2013, When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold S. Kushner. Rabbi Kushner seeks the answer to the ubiquitous question of why "bad things happen to good people". Among those questions addressed was the Holocaust. His "answer" was that G-d is a friend and a support, but since Biblical times has not made a practice in intervening in human affairs. The was an effort to explain how G-d could allow such things to happen as the Holocaust, floods, pandemics etc. I have come to agree with most of the book's precepts, that G-d's role is limited to setting up the world, giving humans more powers than animals or plants, and then letting go. G-d does not cause or prevent cancer or other horrible deaths.Otherwise how could G-d be a decent force and worthy of praise? Is there an answer to that question?
Bias alert: The author married my natural parents in February 1955 as a substitute, when their original Rabbi wasn't available. But on an intellectual level I buy his arguments.
Right. When my husband suffered a massive stroke for no apparent reason, I guess I should have been like, "Well God's just not working the way I want Him to, so F-- him, I'm out of here". That's not what a believer does. God doesn't work for you and He may put things in your life that you definitely don't want to happen. We submit to God's will in our life trusting that no matter what it seems like to our understanding, all things do work to good for those who love the Lord.
My husband suffering an unexplained stroke on Christmas Eve morning and passing away without ever being able to speak to me again was ultimately for my own (and his own) good, though I'll never know why that is in this life. But for me I will be with my husband again and all my brothers and sisters in Jesus in just a short while (for this life is so very brief).
If I didn't have this hope, I would have taken my own life years ago.
I would never suggest to someone with such a tenuous grip on life that they give up Jesus. Some of us have the psychological makeup to be able to handle life without him, others of us don't. I've always said, it doesn't matter what a person uses as a life preserver--whether it be sex, drugs, rock n roll or even Jesus. Whatever gets you to safe harbor at the end of the day on this rattrap of a ball spinning through space is exactly what you should be believing in to stay alive. Good luck to you.
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