Christianity works exactly like a virus with its virulent message of death and destruction without Jesus (atheism, Biblical)
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I was just objecting to his choice to not include Mormonism in Christianity. He was saying that Braeburn applies aren't real apples, and they are. I wasn't suggesting that his statement was an accurate one. I don't believe it was.
I have heard that the one thing most Christians can agree on is that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians. As a Jewish atheist, I have no dog in that fight. I only report what I’ve been told.
I have heard that the one thing most Christians can agree on is that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians. As a Jewish atheist, I have no dog in that fight. I only report what I’ve been told.
Trust me, I know what they think. Fortunately, it's not their call. I know that, as Mormon, I am first and foremost, a Christian.
I have heard that the one thing most Christians can agree on is that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians. As a Jewish atheist, I have no dog in that fight. I only report what I’ve been told.
Many so-called Born Again Christians will also say that even Catholics (and Orthodox) are not Christians.
This is based on what they perceive as “works based salvation”.
Go on any Evangelical discussion group, like CARM, and the members there are very hostile towards Catholics.
JWs and Mormons are even relegated to the Cults - but fortunately they don’t get much discussion there, and it’s simply not worth interacting with such biased and self-righteous Christians there anyway.
As Katzpur has said above, all Christian denominations are Christians first and foremost.
Trust me, I know what they think. Fortunately, it's not their call. I know that, as Mormon, I am first and foremost, a Christian.
As far as I’m concerned, if you worship Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you are Christian. And that includes everyone from Methodists to Mormons to Messianic Jews.
Trust me, I know what they think. Fortunately, it's not their call. I know that, as Mormon, I am first and foremost, a Christian.
It is all a function of what defines the term "Christian". If you define it in terms of orthodoxy (usually via adherence to the historic Christian creeds) then Mormonism and even moreso JWs have some serious problems to overcome. If you define it as accepting the Bible as revelation and Jesus as god, without getting very specific about it, then yes, those groups are Christian. Or as I tend to think of it as an engineer: Christian, for some given value of "Christian".
The evangelical world I grew up in regarded both Mormons and JWs as apostates. Much of Christianity, at least at the grassroots level, does not feel that strongly about it -- partly because they don't know much about Mormons or JWs and partly because they frankly don't know all that much about their own theology. Also, Mormonism and JWs, as groups, have grown larger and people are more accustomed to them and therefore less willing to style them as "cults" or "cultish". A cult is nothing more than a religion that isn't that well established or known, ultimately. One of the things the Mormons did to get rid of what one might call "the cult cooties" was to ditch their early advocacy for polygamy. That got rid of a TON of controversy and fear and loathing ... even apart from Christian doctrinal concerns, a lot of people found polygamous society to be execrable.
It is all a function of what defines the term "Christian".
I think today the term "Christian" has just evolved to distinguish people from being Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist as opposed to calling oneself Christian because they believe and follow the precepts of the New Testament.
Most Christians today could quote you verbatim a single verse from the King James nor could they tell you the difference between the Old and New Testaments or indeed what sections the Bible is comprised of. This ignorance of their own religion pretty much demonstrates that most Christians do not practice their religion. At most they go to Christmas and Easter services and sin like the devil the rest of the year. As such they are dupes for just about anything people will tell them about other Christian denominations.
"Mormons are not Christians."
"Oh really? I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me."
I think today the term "Christian" has just evolved to distinguish people from being Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist as opposed to calling oneself Christian because they believe and follow the precepts of the New Testament.
I am not sure that it hasn't always been that way. That is to say, it has, throughout the broad sweep of history, always been a tribal signifier with more cultural than religious significance. In the pre-literacy, pre-printing press era, the laity didn't have any direct knowledge of theology or even generally access to scripture. They just did what they were taught to by rote, what they heard from the pulpit, and had little choice but to assume it to be true.
In the modern era, have most believers been all that devout or considered in their faith? I rather doubt it. Coming, as I do, from an evangelical background where we greatly valued Biblical literacy, and having some formal schooling in same, I tend to think most Christians are pretty blissfully ignorant of Biblical matters, as you suggest. But it's not something that is unique to recent years. I was a minority within a minority in that regard. And we were Bibliolaters, at that. But in retrospect it seems more to me like even being "people of the book" was more useful as social identification than an actual fact of most people's existence that would lead to them actually studying the book in any systematic way. And this isn't a dig; most working people barely have the time and energy for a brief daily devotional, much less a systematic program of study.
On top of all that, the knowledge I had of doctrine and dogma and theology was very particular to our sect. There were other theological schools that I'm sure looked down on us with derision for our lack of rigor and ignorance of more august and dignified lines of theological exploration.
I just don't think most pew warmers think that much about it, or ever have.
I am not sure that it hasn't always been that way. That is to say, it has, throughout the broad sweep of history, always been a tribal signifier with more cultural than religious significance. In the pre-literacy, pre-printing press era, the laity didn't have any direct knowledge of theology or even generally access to scripture. They just did what they were taught to by rote, what they heard from the pulpit, and had little choice but to assume it to be true.
In the modern era, have most believers been all that devout or considered in their faith? I rather doubt it. Coming, as I do, from an evangelical background where we greatly valued Biblical literacy, and having some formal schooling in same, I tend to think most Christians are pretty blissfully ignorant of Biblical matters, as you suggest. But it's not something that is unique to recent years. I was a minority within a minority in that regard. And we were Bibliolaters, at that. But in retrospect it seems more to me like even being "people of the book" was more useful as social identification than an actual fact of most people's existence that would lead to them actually studying the book in any systematic way. And this isn't a dig; most working people barely have the time and energy for a brief daily devotional, much less a systematic program of study.
On top of all that, the knowledge I had of doctrine and dogma and theology was very particular to our sect. There were other theological schools that I'm sure looked down on us with derision for our lack of rigor and ignorance of more august and dignified lines of theological exploration.
I just don't think most pew warmers think that much about it, or ever have.
I have tried mightily to understand HOW the primitive and barbaric beliefs about God and Jesus have survived intact for over two millennia, mordant. It is a conundrum that led me to a similar conclusion as in the bold about the pew warmers. But it also fosters significant distrust and disrespect for the motives of the so-called learned, ordained, and scholarly who rationalized and perpetuated it.
I am not sure that it hasn't always been that way. That is to say, it has, throughout the broad sweep of history, always been a tribal signifier with more cultural than religious significance. In the pre-literacy, pre-printing press era, the laity didn't have any direct knowledge of theology or even generally access to scripture. They just did what they were taught to by rote, what they heard from the pulpit, and had little choice but to assume it to be true.
In the modern era, have most believers been all that devout or considered in their faith? I rather doubt it. Coming, as I do, from an evangelical background where we greatly valued Biblical literacy, and having some formal schooling in same, I tend to think most Christians are pretty blissfully ignorant of Biblical matters, as you suggest. But it's not something that is unique to recent years. I was a minority within a minority in that regard. And we were Bibliolaters, at that. But in retrospect it seems more to me like even being "people of the book" was more useful as social identification than an actual fact of most people's existence that would lead to them actually studying the book in any systematic way. And this isn't a dig; most working people barely have the time and energy for a brief daily devotional, much less a systematic program of study.
On top of all that, the knowledge I had of doctrine and dogma and theology was very particular to our sect. There were other theological schools that I'm sure looked down on us with derision for our lack of rigor and ignorance of more august and dignified lines of theological exploration.
I just don't think most pew warmers think that much about it, or ever have.
Perhaps I should have qualified my post when I said (or meant to say, "Most Christians couldn't quote verbatim a single verse from the Bible") "Most American Christians couldn't......" since statistics show Americans score 38th among developed nations in test results. This deficit in academic skills seems to translate over to interest in acquiring Biblical skills among Americans too. Put plainly, Americans don't seem interested in educating themselves.
I have heard that the one thing most Christians can agree on is that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians. As a Jewish atheist, I have no dog in that fight. I only report what I’ve been told.
What do you find as UN-Christian at www.jw.org ________________
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