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Old Gringo, apparently you haven't been following the discussion.
My only objection is that we had a poster recommend that people pretend to be "very interested" what the missionaries had to say in order to lure them into a discussion where he had no intention of listening to them and would try to prevent them from even talking.
THAT is the lying part.
I certainly believe that you have just as much right to talk about your religion (or anything else) to visitors at your door as they do to talk about theirs. Anyone who intentionally deceives another in order to take advantage of them is lying, whether that is the person knocking on the door or the person answering it.
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Of course, religious zealots sometimes consider any viewpoint in opposition to theirs to be a lie. And a dangerous threat to their own faith. Pity...
... totally irrelevant statements in this discussion...
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Pushing their faith on others is in no way helpful, regardless of intent.
That is irrelevant. If someone sincerely believes he or she is helping, then civilized behavior is that you simply tell him to go away, nicely at first, then more bluntly as needed if he/she doesn't leave. If someone knocks on your door and asks to talk to you, lying and deception is definitely not the moral response to the situation. Period.
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In your opinion. That's an important modifier in this case.
Yes, the modifier is important because the moral, courteous, civilized response does not depend on whether the person is correct or deluded. If you don't want to talk to someone, you tell them that and send them on their way. You don't start lying and deceiving. Civilization starts to break down when people justify their own immoral behavior because they disagree with someone else in the society.
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I don't attempt to proselytize to others who don't share my view. I see it as insulting and demeaning. They're entitled to make up their own minds on the matter w/o my interference. Obviously, you think that talking down to others from a position where you're convinced of the "superiority" of your beliefs is somehow "helpful."
Baloney. It's naked condecension.
It doesn't matter what either of us thinks about his views, although I would submit that each of us think his own views have special merit for himself or he wouldn't maintain them.
If you are insulted by someone coming to your door to talk to you, then you can tell him that. You can ask him to go away. You can even refuse to open the door and just ignore him. There are several reasonable and acceptable responses. What is wrong is to lie and deceive in an attempt to cause harm or distress to the other person in some way.
What is wrong is to lie and deceive in an attempt to cause harm or distress to the other person in some way.
No, what would be wrong in any developed country is to come to someone's door where they PROBABLY already have a religion, have abandoned a religion and/or have already "switched" to another religion. That's annoying more so than it is an attempt to convey a message.
Old Gringo, apparently you haven't been following the discussion.
My only objection is that we had a poster recommend that people pretend to be "very interested" what the missionaries had to say in order to lure them into a discussion where he had no intention of listening to them and would try to prevent them from even talking.
THAT is the lying part.
I certainly believe that you have just as much right to talk about your religion (or anything else) to visitors at your door as they do to talk about theirs. Anyone who intentionally deceives another in order to take advantage of them is lying, whether that is the person knocking on the door or the person answering it.
... totally irrelevant statements in this discussion...
That is irrelevant. If someone sincerely believes he or she is helping, then civilized behavior is that you simply tell him to go away, nicely at first, then more bluntly as needed if he/she doesn't leave. If someone knocks on your door and asks to talk to you, lying and deception is definitely not the moral response to the situation. Period.
Yes, the modifier is important because the moral, courteous, civilized response does not depend on whether the person is correct or deluded. If you don't want to talk to someone, you tell them that and send them on their way. You don't start lying and deceiving. Civilization starts to break down when people justify their own immoral behavior because they disagree with someone else in the society.
The moral, courteous approach is to let other folks have their beliefs in peace. Knocking on strangers' doors in an attempt to persuade them to your line of thought is neither courteous nor moral at any level.
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It doesn't matter what either of us thinks about his views, although I would submit that each of us think his own views have special merit for himself or he wouldn't maintain them.
If you are insulted by someone coming to your door to talk to you, then you can tell him that. You can ask him to go away. You can even refuse to open the door and just ignore him. There are several reasonable and acceptable responses. What is wrong is to lie and deceive in an attempt to cause harm or distress to the other person in some way.
What is more wrong is to assume your faith is superior to anyone else's and attempt to persuade another to abandon theirs because of it.
The moral, courteous approach is to let other folks have their beliefs in peace. Knocking on strangers' doors in an attempt to persuade them to your line of thought is neither courteous nor moral at any level.
But of course, this is patently false. Are you claiming that there has never been an issue or cause, nor can you imagine an issue or cause, for which it is not immoral to approach a stranger to try to express your view? Civil rights? Slavery? Election campaigning? Nothing at all?
It appears you don't like people approaching you to talk to you. That's fine. Everyone has his or her likes and dislikes. But classifying all such behavior as discourteous and immoral is a gross overstatement and nothing more than an an attempt to elevate your personal preference to a moral issue.
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What is more wrong is to assume your faith is superior to anyone else's and attempt to persuade another to abandon theirs because of it.
Absolutely not. If slavery were still practiced, you can believe that I and many others would be out there trying to persuade pro-slavery people to abandon their belief in favor of mine. I can go down a huge list of beliefs that I would consider being vital enough that it would be immoral if one did NOT try to at least inform, if not persuade, other people. There is nothing immoral about thinking that you are right and someone else is wrong. It seems you want to put religion into a special category from all other beliefs and opinions in order to be able to render its discussion immoral.
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The Golden Rule, remember?
This in no way contradicts the Golden Rule. I really, really hope that if you know something you think is vital for me to know or that would greatly improve my life, that you would take the time to at least ask me if I'm interested. Such a thing is always moral, and it is seldom difficult to do it in a courteous way.
But of course, this is patently false. Are you claiming that there has never been an issue or cause, nor can you imagine an issue or cause, for which it is not immoral to approach a stranger to try to express your view? Civil rights? Slavery? Election campaigning? Nothing at all?
It appears you don't like people approaching you to talk to you. That's fine. Everyone has his or her likes and dislikes. But classifying all such behavior as discourteous and immoral is a gross overstatement and nothing more than an an attempt to elevate your personal preference to a moral issue.
Absolutely not. If slavery were still practiced, you can believe that I and many others would be out there trying to persuade pro-slavery people to abandon their belief in favor of mine. I can go down a huge list of beliefs that I would consider being vital enough that it would be immoral if one did NOT try to at least inform, if not persuade, other people. There is nothing immoral about thinking that you are right and someone else is wrong. It seems you want to put religion into a special category from all other beliefs and opinions in order to be able to render its discussion immoral.
This in no way contradicts the Golden Rule. I really, really hope that if you know something you think is vital for me to know or that would greatly improve my life, that you would take the time to at least ask me if I'm interested. Such a thing is always moral, and it is seldom difficult to do it in a courteous way.
Here's something that's important to know: let other folks have their faith in peace. They neither want nor invite your proselytizing.
It appears you don't like people approaching you to talk to you.
I don't think that's the case at all with the poster.
Thinking about the subdivision where my parents live, it's approximately 65:25:10 - Christian, various (no LDS,JW) : Catholic : Eastern religions. In one way or another, they are churched, either devoutly or loosely. Coming to these people's doors to CONVINCE them toward your way of thinking is obnoxious and intrusive. Instead, let them come to you. Many U.S. religions don't evangelize at that level.
So, you converted during college, sir? What void were you experiencing that you needeed to do so? What structure did you need that your previous religion didn't give you? And what religion did you come from, if one at all? If I recall undegrad correctly, during "sophomore slump," some people's minds can be 'effed with real easily.
Coming to these people's doors to CONVINCE them toward your way of thinking is obnoxious and intrusive.
If by CONVINCE you mean to be obnoxiously persistent and rude, then yes, that is wrong. But if you mean coming to a door to ask to talk about it, then no, it is not obnoxious or intrusive and it is a basic right in our country.
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So, you converted during college, sir? What void were you experiencing that you needeed to do so? What structure did you need that your previous religion didn't give you? And what religion did you come from, if one at all? If I recall undegrad correctly, during "sophomore slump," some people's minds can be 'effed with real easily.
Well, nothing particular comes to mind. I was raised a non-fundamentalist, American Baptist and had only positive experiences there. My family went to church every week, but it was never oppressive or authoritarian and religion wasn't a big deal in our home. I still have some attendance pins that indicate that I attended over 500 Sundays as a child and youth. I only went occasionally after starting high school because of a Sunday morning job I had. I actually wanted to become a Mormon in late high school, but there was nothing at all traumatic in my life that I can pinpoint as a cause. I was basically happy. I had one high school friend who was LDS (the only one of 2500 kids in our high school) and many other good friends happily active in a variety of religions (and a few agnostics in the crowd). I don't think I had ever even heard of Mormons until around 15 years old or so, and then only from that one friend. I became converted through powerful and personal experiences, which I won't share on this kind of board, that convinced me that this is what God wanted me to do. I never attended an LDS church and never was involved in any way with LDS activities until after leaving home for college. I joined the LDS Church after going away to college. When I was about 21 I served a 2-year mission in Japan. Returned home. Got married. Finished college and got a master's degree in Computer Science. Had some kids. Got a job. Had some more kids. My parents got divorced when I was in my mid-twenties. My dad was actively gay from that point on, but we had a great relationship. Served in the Church in all kinds of ways, including the last 15 years as a branch president, counselor in the stake presidency, and now bishop (starting year 7 as bishop). Became a grandpa twice. Informed I will be a grandpa again next May. All in all a pretty simple and happy life with the normal trials (death of a child, another severely disabled child, loss of job and all assets at one point, near death of another child from spinal meningitis at 8 months old, corporate collapse and bankruptcy of 50+ person company for which I was an officer, employee, and director, multiple 6-year personal lawsuits associated with that collapse because I was an officer and director (we won), a few other traumatic events, etc.). I've traveled about 2 million miles for my job all over the world, mostly speaking or teaching on computer security. I'm really cheerful, always laughing, and almost never, ever get angry. I have low blood pressure. I play instruments and sing. I like kids and kids seem to always like me. I'm a bit fat (I need to exercise more), but not balding or graying yet...
So does someone want to build a psychological profile of me?
Last edited by PaulMcNabb; 11-13-2008 at 04:39 PM..
If some LDS guys or JWs come to my door, and I present them with basically my agnostic "version" of their own spiel, including pamphlet about agnosticism, would they stick around to listen to me or would they leave? does it depend on the individual, or do they have rules about that sort of thing?
If some LDS guys or JWs come to my door, and I present them with basically my agnostic "version" of their own spiel, including pamphlet about agnosticism, would they stick around to listen to me or would they leave? does it depend on the individual, or do they have rules about that sort of thing?
There is no rule. They can do whatever they want. They are called on missions to preach the gospel, so their focus will be on teaching other people, but they are also supposed to sincerely interact with people and listen to them, so you might find a receptive audience with some missionaries.
I'm speaking here only about LDS. I don't know what the Jehovah's Witnesses might do.
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