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I don't know why I spend so much time in this forum. After all, debating religious beliefs is all based on feelings, not logic. You cannot counter someones feelings with logic or vice versa. It is a pointless debate that can only end ugly. Maybe that's why so many other fourms ban religious debates.
I am about 0-for-5 in getting responses regarding anything I've posted, which have run the gamut from good, bad, to ugly.
I don't think the purpose is to actually challenge one another in a thoughtful or intelligent manner, but rather it is a place for the fringe peoples to lob ideological grenades across to the other side, with no hope of middle ground or mutual understanding. Or occasionally you'll have a cheerleading thread (Rah-Rah my beliefs). Mostly in the Christian forum, it is discussion of protocol, the making up of new rules based on various bible verses. All in all I'm disappointed.
As an atheist I've never told someone religious that:
1: They should kill themselves because their life is useless as a believer
2: They are doomed to an infinite afterlife of agony for not believing as I do
3: They are worthless because of their beliefs
4: They shouldn't be able to vote because of their beliefs
5: They shouldn't be able to have any one of several professions including doctor or teacher or politician because of their beliefs
6: I wished he or she was dead because they're religious
7: I thought he or she was satan or possessed by demons
8: Spit upon them for being religious
9: Vandalized their home or car for being religious
10: Threatened to fire them from their job for being religious
All of these things and more have happened to me, been done to me "in the name of Jesus" because I'm an atheist and I don't hide that fact. Now,I don't just go up to people and blurt it out like religious 'witnesses' do, but if I'm asked I'll cop to it without shame.
So if there's some contempt coming from my side towards the other side, it's because you have all made it that way. If you'd stop trying to convert us, stop forcing your religious dogma into our laws, stop whining that you're being oppressed when one of us speaks up, stop knocking on my door to 'save' me, and stop being general a-holes in particular to people that don't believe as you do, then you really wouldn't hear much from us at all.
Ya'll made your bed, now you're feeling what it is to lie in it.
We didn't "all" do any of these things. To be honest some of the things you list sound so extreme that if they were common I think the number of hate-crimes against non-believers should be much higher than they are in reality. Unless you live in a less-developed nation. Either way I'd suggest moving or immigrating.
There are many many places where the majority of Christians are liberal Protestants, Catholics, or Orthodoxers. I'm not sure why your bad fortune has to spill out to all of us.
Note: I have said atheists have higher suicide rate, but that's because they do. I've never said atheists should commit suicide and I can't imagine ever telling anyone they should suicide because of their atheism.
To be honest some of the things you list sound so extreme that if they were common I think the number of hate-crimes against non-believers should be much higher than they are in reality. Unless you live in a less-developed nation. Either way I'd suggest moving or immigrating.
Oh right, I should have to move in order to have a life free from fundie hatred? I don't think so. That's another thing I left off the list -- your sheeples' constant claim that the US is a Christian country and that if I don't like being oppressed because I'm an atheist, that I should leave. Screw that.
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There are many many places where the majority of Christians are liberal Protestants, Catholics, or Orthodoxers. I'm not sure why your bad fortune has to spill out to all of us.
Because you Christians are responsible to police your own, and correct/slap them down they're being hateful idiots. Yet all you do is ignore the fact that you have many like Fred Phelps, many hateful disgusting people in your ranks. You blithely say "Well, they're not REAL Christians..." yet when you hear of a terrorist bombing by Muslim extremists, you blame that on them. Even when mainstream Muslims say those terrorists aren't following the "real Islam". Hypocrisy at its finest.
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Note: I have said atheists have higher suicide rate, but that's because they do. I've never said atheists should commit suicide and I can't imagine ever telling anyone they should suicide because of their atheism.
Well, your ilk has told me directly that I should just kill myself because I have nothing to live for as an atheist. Ignore it all you want, but the majority of Christians are hateful to us.
As far as suicide itself, on average atheists are better educated, have higher incomes, lower divorce rates, are healthier, happier, and live longer than Christians. They are also much more amenable to considering suicide as an alternative to a prolonged and excruciatingly painful death, because their religion doesn't prohibit that very reasonable alternative. So what?
Also, all those studies don't take into account health issues or other things, so they could easily be biased or incorrect.
All the non believers why so much hostility/anger? If you don't believe don't participate.
This forum is about religion and philosophy.
There are two main groups of people who visit this forum:
- people who respect religion/faith/spirituality
- people who don't respect religion/faith/spirituality
Both groups, whether they realize it or not, and whether their beliefs are chosen through a detailed philosophical reasoning method or not, hold different philosophical views.
Those who do not respect religion see this forum as their opportunity to deride and ridicule those with whom they don't agree. It is extremely rare (think of the odds of winning the lottery) that you will find those who don't respect religion be respectful towards those who do respect religion.
Their mindset is that since they don't believe there is any rational reason to believe in anything not proven by natural means then it can only be worthy of derision and mockery. Thus, they act out.
What's odd about this is that for a group that is so certain of their ability to reason they prefer instead to deride and use ad homs. Perhaps it's not so odd; I firmly believe the majority of these people don't understand philosophy or logic well enough to use it to make their points. This is why their arguments always consist entirely of (or at least very quickly devolve into) derision and ad hom attacks.
Pretty pathetic, really, but I think it helps most of these people fill a void in their lives...
Oh right, I should have to move in order to have a life free from fundie hatred? I don't think so. That's another thing I left off the list -- your sheeples' constant claim that the US is a Christian country and that if I don't like being oppressed because I'm an atheist, that I should leave. Screw that.
In life, we all end up living with other people, unless we decide to live as hermits. When we live with other people, there will be differences amongst us. Sometimes you will find that you are more like most of the people you live amongst and sometimes you'll find you are less like them.
If you find you are living amongs people who are very different from you and aim hatred at you for it, then you would be wise to assess the situation and take control of what you can control. If you can move, but choose not to, then you are choosing to live amongst those people, for whatever reason. Beyond that, to whine about it is foolish.
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Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar
Because you Christians are responsible to police your own, and correct/slap them down they're being hateful idiots. Yet all you do is ignore the fact that you have many like Fred Phelps, many hateful disgusting people in your ranks. You blithely say "Well, they're not REAL Christians..." yet when you hear of a terrorist bombing by Muslim extremists, you blame that on them. Even when mainstream Muslims say those terrorists aren't following the "real Islam". Hypocrisy at its finest.
Where do you get the notion that we "Christians are responsible to police [our] own"???
As far as Fred Phelps goes, there are Christians that denounce him and some who don't. What do you want, for all Christians to have a giant world-wide meeting and address how we can judge Fred Phelps?
When I hear of a Muslim bombing I do not blame it on all Muslims, not in the least. My great-grandparents were massacred by a Muslims in a genocide they committed against Christians, but I don't blame all Muslims for that. My grandparents and parents lived with Muslim neighbors who were their best friends. There are millions of Christians who get along great with Muslims.
What you are describing is an American mentality, not a Christian one. You just fail to see the difference (perhaps intentionally, so as to deride Christianity further).
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Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar
Well, your ilk has told me directly that I should just kill myself because I have nothing to live for as an atheist. Ignore it all you want, but the majority of Christians are hateful to us.
I believe that there are many Christians who are hateful towards you, but I also believe the majority of Christians are respectful, tolerant, and kind to you. I think you tend to focus on the hateful ones so as to form your prejudices.
Where did I say you did? Oh right, I should have to move in order to have a life free from fundie hatred? I don't think so. That's another thing I left off the list -- your sheeples' constant claim that the US is a Christian country and that if I don't like being oppressed because I'm an atheist, that I should leave. Screw that.
I had to leave rural Arkansas for a similar reason. Sometimes if a place sucks you're better off leaving. If you feel it's noble or necessary to "stay and fight" okay, but that's your choice.
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Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar
Because you Christians are responsible to police your own, and correct/slap them down they're being hateful idiots. Yet all you do is ignore the fact that you have many like Fred Phelps, many hateful disgusting people in your ranks. You blithely say "Well, they're not REAL Christians..." yet when you hear of a terrorist bombing by Muslim extremists, you blame that on them. Even when mainstream Muslims say those terrorists aren't following the "real Islam". Hypocrisy at its finest.
Actually I'm the type who thinks the Muslims have a bit of a point on this. Why should they have to speak for or to all Muslims? How is that reasonable? Basically expecting Muslims have to denounce every crazy Muslim is almost a way of saying "You Muslims have a responsibility to prove to us you're not as crazy as we think you might be." Granted it makes a little sense as Muslims are foreign to many of us so we might not know what to think if they don't say something. Christians aren't a foreign and alien culture.
Anyway the entire Baptist denomination is a heretical offshoot of a heresy as far as I'm concerned. And Phelps is a heresy of that. I do denounce him, but he has nothing to do with me. He's like three steps removed if I counted it right.
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Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar
Well, your ilk has told me directly that I should just kill myself because I have nothing to live for as an atheist. Ignore it all you want, but the majority of Christians are hateful to us.
I can't speak to your experience. However to generalize from that is questionable and frankly illogical.
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Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar
As far as suicide itself, on average atheists are better educated, have higher incomes, lower divorce rates, are healthier, happier, and live longer than Christians. They are also much more amenable to considering suicide as an alternative to a prolonged and excruciatingly painful death, because their religion doesn't prohibit that very reasonable alternative. So what?
I question that they're happier, healthier, longer lived, and lower in divorce. Most of this is in comparison to Evangelical Protestants or is skewed by them. Seventh-Day Adventists are reportedly the longest-lived and healthiest group in America. Divorce rates among Catholics, Presbyterians, and Lutherans are as low as atheists. Possibly lower as a part of atheists low divorce rates is that they're less likely to get married in the first place. And I think happier is almost totally disproven as church-going people tend to be happier. Scandinavians are relatively happy, but other highly atheistic peoples of Europe aren't necessarily that happy. The most religious nations of Europe are likely Cyprus, Greece, Ireland, Malta, and Poland. Of those Greece and Poland are less happy than the highly atheistic French, but the others are happier. The highly secular Dutch beat most of those, but not Ireland.
Rankorder of Happiness in Nations: Average Happiness (http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/findingreports/RankReport2009-1d.htm - broken link)
It's extremely rare to find a believer that isn't judgmental of non-believers and doesn't try to convert them.
A believer's "judgment" of a non-believer is based in spiritual beliefs. If an atheist truly doesn't lend credence to those beliefs, it wouldn't bother him to be judged by those beliefs.
For example, I worked with an Indian man who was somewhat devoutly Hindu. He would not eat beef. He explained to me one time why I should not eat beef; he judged me as having done wrong for eating beef. Well, his spiritual beliefs are of no consequence to me. I actually kind of appreciated that he felt he could talk to me about it and was concerned enough about me to communicate this belief. Yes, he judged me. So what? I don't believe I will be reincarnated, I don't believe that karma will punish me for eating beef, I don't believe cows are sacred while chickens are not.
I am never bothered by those who try to convert me to their faith; I actually appreciate their concern. I will never, ever be rude to Mormon or JW's missionaries or any others who come to my doorstep to share with me what they think is good news that will help me. They won't convert me, but how can I be angry at them for that??? Wouldn't make sense.
And of course believers are going to try to convert non-believers. What would you do if you honestly believed that someone was heading for death? And what's it to you if someone tries to proselytize you? If you don't believe, you don't believe. Do you fear your belief may change? Does hearing about God jab at your heart? If it really is all meaningless to you, you wouldn't get so uptight about it.
Atheists should respect a believer who cares about him enough to "convet" him, not get angry and hate the person.
A believer's "judgment" of a non-believer is based in spiritual beliefs. If an atheist truly doesn't lend credence to those beliefs, it wouldn't bother him to be judged by those beliefs.
Oh, please cut the crap. Do you have any desire to be continually harangued by someone who believes differently than you and keeps pushing it on you against your will? Day after week after month after year, imagine them telling you every day that you should change your mind because you're wrong, and when you tell them you're not interested or to go away, they don't.
Would YOU like that? Please lie and say it wouldn't bother you to be treated your entire life that way. And for the record, it's not the 'judging' that bothers me, it's that they won't s-t-f-u when I ask them nicely to cut it out and leave me alone. Poke the bear with the stick often enough, pretty soon the bear is going to get tired of it.
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? If you don't believe don't participate
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