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Heck no, it has oceanic summers not subtropical/tropical summers. Sydney and subtropical climates with cool summers need to be classified as something else, just like everyone agrees places with cooler winters for a subtropical climate should be classified differently. I still think its subtropical 100% though. just not like other subtropical climates with true hot tropical summers.
I see subtropical climates as different to subtropical environments.
I do see NYC as a subtropical climate, but I don't see it as a subtropical environment(as per Koppen).
That's not an inconsistent approach -there are oceanic climates (for example), but there isn't really such a thing as an Oceanic environment.
I think Trewartha"s 8 months >10C rule, was an attempt to classify subtropical -ness, by the environment it creates.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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This is my first city-data post
My definition of a subtropical climate is:
Annual High Temp 16 to 26 °C
Daily High Must Reach 27°C during year
Daily High Must be 16°C+ for 6 months+
Annual Low Temp 7 to 18 °C
Daily Low Must Reach 16°C during year
Daily Low Must Stay above -5°C
Daily Low Must Spend less than
3 months at/or below 0°C
Annual High Temp 16 to 26 °C
Daily High Must Reach 27°C during year
Daily High Must be 16°C+ for 6 months+
Annual Low Temp 7 to 18 °C
Daily Low Must Reach 16°C during year
Daily Low Must Stay above -5°C
Daily Low Must Spend less than
3 months at/or below 0°C
Welcome to the forum.
Like some other subtropical classifications, this disregards the conditions that create a more vibrant physical environment (warmer winters), in favour of a less environmentally significant warm season.
My climate has nine months at 16C+, yet a place with 3 months of lows as cold as -5C, would be more subtropical under your system -I don't see the logic. That's going to be a long dormant period, and I just don't see 3-5 months of dormancy, as capturing the subtropical essence.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90
Welcome to the forum.
Like some other subtropical classifications, this disregards the conditions that create a more vibrant physical environment (warmer winters), in favour of a less environmentally significant warm season.
My climate has nine months at 16C+, yet a place with 3 months of lows as cold as -5C, would be more subtropical under your system -I don't see the logic. That's going to be a long dormant period, and I just don't see 3-5 months of dormancy, as capturing the subtropical essence.
Except now you are being too strict and saying a place like Lexington, KY or Philadelphia is not subtropical.
Plus I stated that the normal low has to stay ABOVE -5°C. If it hits -5°C or lower, it makes it automatically transitional to continental or outright continental
Okay. I meant your stereotypical four season climate (e.g. Hartford, CT).
Avg. temp West Palm Beach, FL: 75.4 F
Avg. temp Hartford, CT: 50.5 F
Avg. temp Raleigh, NC: 60.8 F
60.8 is closer to 50.5 than 75.4, so Raleigh is not subtropical.
Is anyone even arguing over whether or not Houston or any other gulf coast location is subtropical?
I thought people were arguing over the region from US Hwy 84 to I-40 or so. I live near you and disagree with you over our location's subtropicalness. So I already agreed with asagi that his area is subtropical. And I'll grant smithgn that Columbia, SC does have some subtropical characteristics.
Also 60.8 is raleighs mean temp for the year, the average high is 71.3 and low 50.3. So our average low temp is only 5 tenths of a degree cooler than Hartford mean high. If I had to define what's subtropical by climate in the eastern us these are my criteria.
1. 4 months with a mean temp of 68
2. An average high of at least 68
3. Mean temp of at least 58
4. Must be able to see temps of 68 and over in every month of the year in 75% of the years
5. Must not see temp under 10 degrees in at least 75% of the years
6. Must not see subzero temps more than 5% of the years
7. Must have an average low of >= 28 in the coolest month
8.Must be able to support flowering plants in winter
9. Average yearly snowfall does not exceed 10 inches
10. Must have a growing season of at least 200 days
11. Must meet the first 6 criteria or it is automatically disqualified from being humid subtropical, must meet altogether at least 2 of the criteria in 7-10. If it meets all it is humid subtropical, if it meets 1-6 and meets another 2 at least in 7-10 it is transitional subtropical, if it meets 4 of the first 6 and 2 of 7-10 it is temperate continental. Under this system Raleigh meets all of them so it is subtropical. Also under this system I basically split apart Koppens classification into 2 zones.
Except now you are being too strict and saying a place like Lexington, KY or Philadelphia is not subtropical.
Plus I stated that the normal low has to stay ABOVE -5°C. If it hits -5°C or lower, it makes it automatically transitional to continental or outright continental
I think Lexington and Philadelphia are Cfa, but I wouldn't consider them subtropical environments -too long for the dormant period.
I Choose Milan,but is Amazing how a place at 45N can be Subtropical.
Subtropical Places in South America ends at nearly 37S.
Europe as a whole is a big latitude anomaly. At 63N in Finland you can grow strawberries while Base Esperanza in the Antarctic is at 63S and a polar climate.
I think Lexington and Philadelphia are Cfa, but I wouldn't consider them subtropical environments -too long for the dormant period.
Why even bother with that classification system? It is just so wrong to call this area where I live "subtropical" as it renders the term useless then when applied in a such a broad manner. We have no growing season in the winter. There has to be a new and better system that would remove places like Philadelphia and Birmingham, AL and Atlanta, Jackson, MS, etc.
I agree we should not be lumped with Toronto, but we shouldn't be lumped in with Savannah, GA either.
Europe as a whole is a big latitude anomaly. At 63N in Finland you can grow strawberries while Base Esperanza in the Antarctic is at 63S and a polar climate.
Europe definitely won the "highest latitudes, best climates" category in natures lottery. The eastern half of North America all the way down to Florida came in last in that lottery imo. Worst geography for winter stability on the planet.
People go on and on about Miami being tropical, well look at other cities at their latitude and at sea level. Those other cities have never ever gone below freezing. Places like Karachi (went to 32F not below), Dubai, Bahrain, Hong Kong, etc etc. Not only has Miami gone down to 27F, it has gone down to 32F or below in Dec, Jan, Feb and even March.
Yeah, I think there is a clear difference in certain climates that can be classed as cfa and dfa.
Philadelphia, NYC, DC etc are all clearly continental to me, albeit on the warmer side of continental. Philadelphia has a difference of 26C between its average max in January and July - how can anyone claim that this is not a continental trait and that it is subtropical!? The figures are similar with DC and NYC too.
I would class those three climates as 'warm continental' (I think humid continental is misleading). Chicago for me is probably the stereotypical continental climate around the middle ground - colder winters and warm summers, and then you have cities like Toronto and Winnipeg that are at the colder end of the scale.
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