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I'd say Chicago's winters are closer to a real winter than not, but as someone who's lived in suburban Toronto, Thunder Bay, Waterloo ON, and visited Montreal dozens of times in winter (family lives there), the winters in Toronto feel quite mild.
2023 is somewhat anomalous here, but not that anomalous, and we'll still get cold I'm sure. But it's probably not gonna make up for the fact that the first half of winter had 10x more rain than snow, and snow cover for only like 5 days out of 45.
I've spent 4 winters in Thunder Bay, and they've all featured unrelenting winter conditions from December to March. Maybe you'd get a few days in the 30s, but not enough to melt the snowpack, and the overwhelming majority of days were still below freezing, often significantly so.
Montreal can get some mild weather and rain, but the winters are still predominantly cold and snowy. Sub-0F temperature typically happen quite often, and an average day will be considerably below freezing.
Waterloo can occasionally get sub-0F temperatures, but the cold is typically not as harsh, although still predominantly below freezing. Still, mild weather is not terribly unusual, but it still gets enough below freezing temperatures and snow that there's snowpack from most of the period of mid-December to early March.
Toronto however, frequently gets long stretches that are snow free, and mild rainy weather. Even though last winter got some backloaded winter conditions with cold and snow, December was mild, and there was little snow until the second half of January, and then by mid-February it was starting to get mild again.
2021, 2017, 2012, 2010 winters were mild and not very wintery imo.
By the way, the significance of winter rain is that it thaws the ground much more effectively than mild temperatures without rain.
Even Chicago's January 2014 had some mild temperatures with several days above freezing including some 5-8C days.
So although I would say Chicago and Toronto have, on average, more winter weather than not in their winter months, there's still enough of a lack of consistency that it's not as much of a classic winter as around Lake Superior, Quebec, Maine, New Brunswick, North Dakota, Winnipeg, etc.
Add a few more degrees to get the climate typical of the Ohio Valley, and the winters are now almost entirely on the "temperate" side of the scale. Still cold enough for consistent dormancy, making it a distinct season from spring, but mild enough that snow and freezing daytime temperatures are not present for most of their winters.
How do you win though? Chicago alread has a snow season from roughly 11/15-3/31 which is more than the winter season. All those other places have even longer snow seasons. If you're looking for a 4 season climate, there should be consistent snow pack all winter but it should also never snow outside of winter. You can't have that. at least almost everyone would say Chicago is cold in winter and hot in summer. St John , New Brunswick and places like that doesn't have a summer. it's going to snow in April . It's not 4 season
I made a climate box for Tybee Island and I think it's a climate that would please a lot of the users on this thread who dislike the Inland South. It's a 10a location according to Savannahians Tom77falcons has spoken to, and the averages certainly fit with that.
The reason it's so warm is because it's a weather station quite close to the water and also located due south of the water. Last winter was even frostless 10a for them, lowest all season was 1C!
Where does the Tybee island data come from? Hilton head reached -7c in December 2022. Looking back on Hilton Head data recently it seems somehow magically immune to freezing. There are many days with just missing data, but many days with low temps 1-3 all winter and somehow never drops below that. I say magically because it is not recording freezes on days when St Augustine did in recent years, while being 300km north of Augustine
Yep, the freak advective Christmas freeze dropped lows like crazy.
Quote:
Looking back on Hilton Head data recently it seems somehow magically immune to freezing. There are many days with just missing data, but many days with low temps 1-3 all winter and somehow never drops below that. I say magically because it is not recording freezes on days when St Augustine did in recent years, while being 300km north of Augustine
It gets crazier than that! Parts of Beaufort did not record any frosts during the 2010-11 winter when even West Palm Beach got freak frosts.
When the setup is right (as it usually is), these Sea Islands get the long end of the stick for their latitude.
Yep, the freak advective Christmas freeze dropped lows like crazy.
It gets crazier than that! Parts of Beaufort did not record any frosts during the 2010-11 winter when even West Palm Beach got freak frosts.
When the setup is right (as it usually is), these Sea Islands get the long end of the stick for their latitude.
First tropical Dallas Arts district now tropical Beaufort
Hilton Head Island Airport
January 2010: 21F
December 2010: 25F
January 2011: 21F
January 2014: 19F
January 2018: 23F
December 2022: 19F
No, it's not zone 10. There is a sub-30F freeze almost every single winter season.
And yes the airport is in a populated area adjacent to the Atlantic with a large expanse of water to the north, not a "coldhole"
First tropical Dallas Arts district now tropical Beaufort
What hyperbole, I NEVER said either Dallas Arts District or Beaufort were tropical!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi
Hilton Head Island Airport
January 2010: 21F
December 2010: 25F
January 2011: 21F
January 2014: 19F
January 2018: 23F
December 2022: 19F
No, it's not zone 10. There is a sub-30F freeze almost every single winter season.
And yes the airport is in a populated area adjacent to the Atlantic with a large expanse of water to the north, not a "coldhole"
Tell that to this. This is from August 2013, so it does include 2010-11.
Quote:
I'm on other forums, and the people from Savannah claim they are easily zone 9A, while their coastal islands are 9b/10a. The airport in Savannah is well outside and inland in what everyone considers to be a cold spot. The stats for Savannah would be even warmer if you look at a place like Tybee Island or Wilmington Island, and Savannah proper itself. I'm in contact with this guy: Sea Island Garden , a commununity garden on Lady's Island near Beaufort, SC. He told me they haven't had an airfrost or even a ground frost for the last three winters.
Check out the Sea Island blog link I posted. The community garden on Lady's Island just adjacent to Beaufort, and not even on the Atlantic itself, has not had an air or ground frost in the last three winters. In that time Charleston Airport has gone into the low 20's (23F I believe). People in that region claim that in most winters the islands are zone 10a.
It's not me who's proposing this. It's the gardeners who live in the Lowcountry, and obviously they are to be trusted!
Unless you want to argue they're idiots with no idea what they're talking about, in which case be my guest.
First tropical Dallas Arts district now tropical Beaufort
Hilton Head Island Airport
January 2010: 21F
December 2010: 25F
January 2011: 21F
January 2014: 19F
January 2018: 23F
December 2022: 19F
No, it's not zone 10. There is a sub-30F freeze almost every single winter season.
And yes the airport is in a populated area adjacent to the Atlantic with a large expanse of water to the north, not a "coldhole"
I was surprised to see it missed freezes the a few winters recently. However there isn't really an argument in my mind for it being a zone 10 climate. There are no zone 10 climates in Georgia. The Georgia gold coast is a 9a climate with Savannah traditionally being a 8b Climate . I could see a fair argument for Tybee/hilton Head as a Zone 9a Climate. While USDA zone I think should give more weight to colder years than warmer ones, since it's the colder ones that kill. Yes it hit 8b temps in 2022 and 2014, but only just barely and has managed to hit 10a lows on some years too which is impressive. I would give it the nod for 9a, I think anything 9a plants can take fifteen minutes of 19f temps twice per decade and they'll bounce back.
It's not me who's proposing this. It's the gardeners who live in the Lowcountry, and obviously they are to be trusted!
Unless you want to argue they're idiots with no idea what they're talking about, in which case be my guest.
Anecdotes say it's warmer than West Palm Beach
Logically it must be true...the official weather data has got to be bogus, that's the only explanation.
I've been to Hilton Head and Tybee, it looks nothing like Palm Beach (lol) or even Jacksonville and St Augustine. It looks like Savannah first and the FL Panhandle second
I was surprised to see it missed freezes the a few winters recently. However there isn't really an argument in my mind for it being a zone 10 climate. There are no zone 10 climates in Georgia. The Georgia gold coast is a 9a climate with Savannah traditionally being a 8b Climate . I could see a fair argument for Tybee/hilton Head as a Zone 9a Climate. While USDA zone I think should give more weight to colder years than warmer ones, since it's the colder ones that kill. Yes it hit 8b temps in 2022 and 2014, but only just barely and has managed to hit 10a lows on some years too which is impressive. I would give it the nod for 9a, I think anything 9a plants can take fifteen minutes of 19f temps twice per decade and they'll bounce back.
Actually I am sitting here in Georgia right now, the sun just came out and it's 22c in mid January. The low tonight was in the mid teens. this is practically summer weather in London. the climates have very little in common
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! Parts of Beaufort did not record any frosts during the 2010-11 winter when even West Palm Beach got freak frosts.
, I NEVER said either Dallas Arts District or Beaufort were tropical!
