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Humid subtropical climate according to Koeppen (the experts)
Cold end (borderline continental):
Toledo, Ohio
Weifang, Shandong
Seoul
Middle of the road (should not be controversial)
Wilmington, NC
Fukuoka, Japan
Dallas
Warm end (borderline tropical):
Durban
Brisbane
Tampa
If the word subtropical is too controversial just say Cfa/Cwa but Koeppen grouped these climates together for a reason. Seasonal variations, hot summer, moderate to heavy rainfall in the hottest part of the year where it’s needed the most to keep things green. Call them humid shamalamadingdong if it helps you calm the nerves, that’s what I’ve been doing and it’s worked wonders
LOL I'm curious about it because I live in Atlanta and consider it to be RIGHT on the cusp of a subtropical climate. I don't care which way it falls either way, doesn't change the facts on the ground. The thing for me about places like Raleigh and Atlanta.. even if they aren't technically subtropical they are just have generally pleasant climates. It's not a knock against someplace if it doesn't fit this specific criterea.
Sure Raleigh dips into the 20 degree F a few days per year. In reality having one or two cold nights barely impacts the livability whatsoever. Half the time it will be in the 60s and sunny the very next day. Raleigh probably gets as many 70+ degree winter days as it does <30 degree winter nights. It's just a pleasant weather all around if you don't mind warm summers.
Dead of winter in these kind of cities feels comparable to October or November in northern New England, which many folks consider the best time of year up there. Autumn is maybe the best time of year in the core SE/piedmont cities with generally warm sunny days and cool, but comfortable nights. Spring is a little slow coming on for my taste, but many consider it the best time of the year too.
As far as summer, people tend to love it or hate it. Personally I love it the tropical feel of summer down here. You get those 70+ lows and hazy low 90s degree days, sometimes for weeks on end. Not for everyone, and I sure couldn't sleep well without the AC, but I like to take a lazy walk in the park in that kind of weather, and great for being out at night.
As I've said before, yes, Miami is tropical. However it has subtropical genetics. That's what makes it interesting.
For example, Miami recorded temperatures below freezing 36 times during the 20th century. For most people, this doesn't matter: they don't live long enough and they just go inside if it gets cold. However, it's reasonable to speculate that it may have an impact on the environment.
Occasional freezes are not unique to South Florida. One of the northernmost continental tropical moist forest begins at around the 23rd parallel in Tamaulipas, Mexico. The NATIVE flora there is damaged from time to time by freezes (most recent severe case was in 1989) but that doesn't stop the environment from being overwhelmingly tropical. Inland parts of South America, Australia, and Indochina at tropical latitudes have also recorded freezes.
On a longterm basis, the tropical elements consistently overwhelm and outcompete the temperate elements because freezing is so fleeting and far in between. This is different from more transitional areas like central Florida and far southern Texas where both elements are in a constant flux depending on freezes and warm spells. You won't find "old growth" tropical forest or woodland like you can find along the coastal strip of SE FL and into the Keys. Something even more unique about the coastal rockland forest in SE Florida is that nearly all of the species are of Caribbean rather than continental tropical origin. That means many of the native tropicals in SE Florida are even LESS cold hardy than many of tropical plants growing at the tropical continental fringes. Florida's unique geography means that it's one of the only places in the world where a continental location is populated by maritime tropical flora.
That article is vague and talks of "South Florida" as a broad grouping. I'm specifically referring to the city of Miami and to the immediate coastal strip which includes Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade counties in its most strict definition.
Occasional freezes are not unique to South Florida. One of the northernmost continental tropical moist forest begins at around the 23rd parallel in Tamaulipas, Mexico. The NATIVE flora there is damaged from time to time by freezes (most recent severe case was in 1989) but that doesn't stop the environment from being overwhelmingly tropical. Inland parts of South America, Australia, and Indochina at tropical latitudes have also recorded freezes.
On a longterm basis, the tropical elements consistently overwhelm and outcompete the temperate elements because freezing is so fleeting and far in between. This is different from more transitional areas like central Florida and far southern Texas where both elements are in a constant flux depending on freezes and warm spells. You won't find "old growth" tropical forest or woodland like you can find along the coastal strip of SE FL and into the Keys. Something even more unique about the coastal rockland forest in SE Florida is that nearly all of the species are of Caribbean rather than continental tropical origin. That means many of the native tropicals in SE Florida are even LESS cold hardy than many of tropical plants growing at the tropical continental fringes. Florida's unique geography means that it's one of the only places in the world where a continental location is populated by maritime tropical flora.
Key word there is environment - sometimes the classification will match the environment, and sometimes it won't.
Environment will always match the climate though - classification is the odd one out.
This kind of culumulative distribution graph might be a better way to look at minimum temperatures in a given region
Spoiler
Looks like a 5th percentile Raleigh low is around 24f and 95th percentile low is 72. I would have expected the 95th to be a degree or two higher honestly.
I'm thinking about a better approach to looking at this. There is a difference between a long cold snap with consistent temps in the 30s for hours on end, and a chilly night that hits 30s for half an hour right before sunrise. Might have to get more granular data to capture these differences
Here is one for Melbourne, Florida. This is one of the warmest places in the SE I would still consider subtropical. the 50th percentile daily low looks to be right around 68f
Spoiler
Last edited by Space_League; 10-28-2021 at 05:18 PM..
Laurel species seem to be the best indicator of sufficiently humid subtropical areas. Going by that, both South America and (southern) Eastern Asia stand out as having the best developed zones.
It seems to be too dry in much of South Africa, Australia, and India. This creates either a sclerophyll/semi-sclerophyll or drought-deciduous phenotype, depending on the severity of dryness. The only exceptions are microclimates — windward facing areas of trade wind latitude islands (i.e. Madagascar, northerly areas of Zealandia, etc) or elevated slopes (i.e. Queensland, parts of Assam in India, etc).
North America has too much cold extremes, which produces massive cold winter-deciduousness. But the cold fronts also create aridity as a by-product, so even the milder coastal South still ends up with many sclerophyll (i.e. pines) and semi-sclerophyll (i.e. live oak, magnolia, etc) species. It seems that peninsular Florida and southern Mexico/Central America are the only exceptions in North America to find well developed laurel forests — Northern Mexico and far southern Texas are warm enough, but just too arid overall.
Seen other articles on my subtropical groups about how China and East Asia are land connected to Vietnam, and tropical SE Asia. The Eastern US on the other hand has no land connection to the Caribbean. There is a desert in the SW that blocked tropicals and subtropicals from Mexico. There was a seed block that after the last ice age wiped out the vegetation in Eastern NA, it is the deciduous that rapidly advanced. Supposedly the broadlead evergreens are slowly making their way back north over centuries since the ice retreated. China was never buried under ice like parts of the US were.
That being said there are laurels native to North America.
Laurel species seem to be the best indicator of sufficiently humid subtropical areas. Going by that, both South America and (southern) Eastern Asia stand out as having the best developed zones.
It seems to be too dry in much of South Africa, Australia, and India. This creates either a sclerophyll/semi-sclerophyll or drought-deciduous phenotype, depending on the severity of dryness. The only exceptions are microclimates — windward facing areas of trade wind latitude islands (i.e. Madagascar, northerly areas of Zealandia, etc) or elevated slopes (i.e. Queensland, parts of Assam in India, etc).
North America has too much cold extremes, which produces massive cold winter-deciduousness. But the cold fronts also create aridity as a by-product, so even the milder coastal South still ends up with many sclerophyll (i.e. pines) and semi-sclerophyll (i.e. live oak, magnolia, etc) species. It seems that peninsular Florida and southern Mexico/Central America are the only exceptions in North America to find well developed laurel forests — Northern Mexico and far southern Texas are warm enough, but just too arid overall.
The Southeast of the US when Europeans arrived had vast savannah forests of longleaf pine. When that forest was wiped out by settlers, deciduous took over cause they grow like weeds compared to broadleaf evergreens. Don't think it is all due to cold outbreaks. There are cold outbreaks along the SE coast and yet it is more broadleaf evergreen than deciduous. Has a lot to do with the soil as well.
IMO it's the best one I've seen because it breaks subtropical into two categories (paratropical and subtropical) and the subtropical line kinda lines up with the vegetation.
I remember going to the outer banks a few years ago and the vegetation there seemed much more subtropical than it did in Charlotte.
The problem I've now realized with biotemperature is that for areas with all months above freezing it goes by annual mean, which in turn makes Belo Horizonte subtropical but makes Brownsville tropical.
Seen other articles on my subtropical groups about how China and East Asia are land connected to Vietnam, and tropical SE Asia. The Eastern US on the other hand has no land connection to the Caribbean. There is a desert in the SW that blocked tropicals and subtropicals from Mexico. There was a seed block that after the last ice age wiped out the vegetation in Eastern NA, it is the deciduous that rapidly advanced. Supposedly the broadlead evergreens are slowly making their way back north over centuries since the ice retreated. China was never buried under ice like parts of the US were.
I've heard that theory before. I read that Florida was the sole refuge for the humid subtropical/tropical broadleaf evergreens that managed to persist in the Southern US — it was stated as the reason why species like sabal palmetto were more profuse throughout the state, then up the Atlantic, compared to spreading a farther distance west along the Gulf Coast.
It seems to make sense — I remember learning and exploring the Toledo Bend area (i.e. present day inland Texas/Louisiana), regarding the petrified palmwood fossils there. The palmwood fossils date back to the Oligocene, so there definitely was mildness going on until the ice sheets appeared later on. Also learned about the "temperate rainforests" that used to occupy what is now Big Bend Texas (near El Paso).
Quote:
That being said there are laurels native to North America.
Persea borbonia and magnolia virginiana are two tree-sized species that I know of. There are other species, like those in ilex, but they seem more shrubby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
The Southeast of the US when Europeans arrived had vast savannah forests of longleaf pine. When that forest was wiped out by settlers, deciduous took over cause they grow like weeds compared to broadleaf evergreens. Don't think it is all due to cold outbreaks. There are cold outbreaks along the SE coast and yet it is more broadleaf evergreen than deciduous. Has a lot to do with the soil as well.
The thing with cold snaps that often seems overlooked is the aridity/dryness associated with them (i.e. hence lower dewpoints). I'd imagine laurels can't handle that as well as the sclerophyll pines and oaks — so there will definitely be more laurels growing on the immediate Southern US coast/Florida compared to farther inland and/or northerly locales that are more pine/deciduous dominated.
But, the coastal SE/Florida, when combined with spanish moss and such, allows a nice, lush look. Almost like (southern) East Asia and South America. In contrast, the subtropical zones in Australia, South Africa, and India just seem too dry-looking — nearly semi-arid in India, in fact.
Laurel species seem to be the best indicator of sufficiently humid subtropical areas. Going by that, both South America and (southern) Eastern Asia stand out as having the best developed zones.
It seems to be too dry in much of South Africa, Australia, and India. This creates either a sclerophyll/semi-sclerophyll or drought-deciduous phenotype, depending on the severity of dryness. The only exceptions are microclimates — windward facing areas of trade wind latitude islands (i.e. Madagascar, northerly areas of Zealandia, etc) or elevated slopes (i.e. Queensland, parts of Assam in India, etc).
North America has too much cold extremes, which produces massive cold winter-deciduousness. But the cold fronts also create aridity as a by-product, so even the milder coastal South still ends up with many sclerophyll (i.e. pines) and semi-sclerophyll (i.e. live oak, magnolia, etc) species. It seems that peninsular Florida and southern Mexico/Central America are the only exceptions in North America to find well developed laurel forests — Northern Mexico and far southern Texas are warm enough, but just too arid overall.
The true Laurel species, all evergreen, are not native to Asia at all, but were limited to only the Med, Azores, and Canary Islands.
Occasional freezes are not unique to South Florida. One of the northernmost continental tropical moist forest begins at around the 23rd parallel in Tamaulipas, Mexico. The NATIVE flora there is damaged from time to time by freezes (most recent severe case was in 1989) but that doesn't stop the environment from being overwhelmingly tropical. Inland parts of South America, Australia, and Indochina at tropical latitudes have also recorded freezes.
On a longterm basis, the tropical elements consistently overwhelm and outcompete the temperate elements because freezing is so fleeting and far in between. This is different from more transitional areas like central Florida and far southern Texas where both elements are in a constant flux depending on freezes and warm spells. You won't find "old growth" tropical forest or woodland like you can find along the coastal strip of SE FL and into the Keys. Something even more unique about the coastal rockland forest in SE Florida is that nearly all of the species are of Caribbean rather than continental tropical origin. That means many of the native tropicals in SE Florida are even LESS cold hardy than many of tropical plants growing at the tropical continental fringes. Florida's unique geography means that it's one of the only places in the world where a continental location is populated by maritime tropical flora.
That article is vague and talks of "South Florida" as a broad grouping. I'm specifically referring to the city of Miami and to the immediate coastal strip which includes Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade counties in its most strict definition.
For hardwood (aka tropical) hammocks there is certainly a preponderance of tropical species as you go south.
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The data summary (Appendix 1) collected by observation from the 20 different hammocks indicated that the percent of tropical trees and shrubs varied from high to low based on their distribution from south to north. Excluding non-native plants, surveys of the hammock sites in the Keys showed the highest tropical species, with 94% (Sites 18-20). Lignumvitae Key (Site 19) had the highest percent tropical species at 98%. The second highest was Torchwood (Site 20); however, due to hurricane damage, it was one of the least mature sites we surveyed. The Miami Dade County’s five hammocks averaged 88% (Sites 13-17), Broward County’s one hammock surveyed was 87% (Site 12) and Palm Beach County’s three hammocks
averaged 85% (Sites 9-11).
In contrast, the four hammocks in Martin County (Sites 5-8) illustrated the marked differences in composition between more coastal to inland hammocks (Figure 1). The two coastal hammocks (i.e., Blowing Rocks Preserve and St. Lucie Inlet Preserve State Park) supported 82% and 76%, respectively, of tropical trees
and shrubs. The most westerly hammock (Barley Barber Swamp, Site 6) supported only 30% tropicals and the Trapper Nelson Hammock within Jonathan Dickinson State Park (Site 7) supported 63% (Appendix 1). North of Martin County, the percent of tropical trees and shrubs diminished: Avalon State Park (57%), Maritime Hammock Sanctuary (69%), Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge (31%) and Ft. Clinch State Park (0%).
So if you look only at the hammocks then that would seem to support your assertion. But the hammocks are just a part of a larger ecosystem. This 2018 study examined phylogenetics of the pine rockland habitat with the explicit purpose of "exploring representation of temperate vs. tropical lineages in this supposed floristic melting pot". The area studied was in Dade County right up to Biscayne Bay. They found the pine rockland flora were distinctly a blend of temperate (North American) and tropical (Caribbean) taxa with almost exactly a 50% contribution from each.
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Overall, North America and the Caribbean are part of the native ranges of very similar numbers of taxa: 272 and 254, respectively (Fig. 5, inset graph). It may seem somewhat surprising that temperate, continental North America and the Caribbean should be so nearly equal in their contributions to the pine rockland flora, given that the pine rockland is well within the tropical climate zone that also includes most of the Caribbean (Peel et al., 2007). However, the habitat is not homogeneous from north to south, with more southerly fragments having a higher proportion of tropical taxa, while more northerly fragments are more similar to longleaf pine forests found throughout the southeast (O'Brien, 1998). This reflects the unique mixing of temperate and tropical taxa that is known to be a hallmark of this ecosystem overall, and underscores the connection that Robertson (1953) and others have noted between the pine rockland and other pine-dominated systems to the north in the United States.
It seems to me that the South Florida ecosystem--like almost any ecosystem--contains influences from its surrounding regions both north and south.
Last edited by Ed's Mountain; 10-28-2021 at 09:48 PM..
Reason: Typo
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