Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There's nothing magical that happens at 10c, a lot of coastal South Carolina averages below that and they still have the same characteristics as coastal south Georgia areas.
Charleston sc has historically averaged below 10c, Charleston Int'l still averages below that, you would have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify that threshold. Myrtle Beach averages around 6-7c in January, native southern live oaks, spanish moss and sabal palmetto.
The bigger change in the south is elevation, that is when you see changes from the mixed forest type of the upper south to the yellow pines(longleaf, loblolly, slash) of the coastal plain going down into southern Florida.
Soil type and climate determine the vegetation, not just climate. You see heavily deciduous areas particularly along the MS river valley all the way down to southern LA. They grow like weeds in that soil and far faster than broadleaf evergreens.
That is a carefully landscaped area in Savannah that you cherry picked, a lot of Savannah does not look like that in the winter. In fact the area around Talmadge Memorial Bridge is heavily deciduous in winter but that area would not be representative of Savannah either.
I have tons of photos from Savannah, and Beaufort which show how green even outside of city parks. The boradleaf evergreen forest is native to the coastal areas, not Augusta. Those live oaks there are not native you see in Augusta. The book Travels by Bartram discusses what he saw in Augusta. He saw forests of longleaf pine.
Some people use flora to decide subtropical, I use temperatures first and foremost. If that means putting places like Richmond, Nashville and Tulsa on the upper limit, Trewartha got it right.
One thing you have to remember about the eastern US and NH is general, is even though you can have a jan mean of 10C and grow lots of subtropicals, you can still get hit with cold that can kill subtropical plants, etc as happened in Florida in the early 1980's.
the climates will never be as stable as China and Europe in winter, yet those places as well can be hit with severe cold outbreaks just not as often as North America. SH I just can't think of any instance where subtropical vegetation was harmed in temperate Australia.
Put it this way, I think subtropical plants will always look better once you get above a Jan mean of upper 40's F.
Augusta does have Jan mean temps in the upper 40s(47 and 49 at different airports), but which subtropical plants are talking about, I consider southern magnolia and live oaks to be subtropical plants but they can grow in Tennessee and Kentucky. This is why judging a climate only by vegetation is folly, something Joe from New Zealand has been saying.
Quote:
I suggest that Emman85 join the SE subtropical gardening forum on FB. Joe LaVert at Aquinas HS knows far more about what grows in Augusta than most.
That guy is a teacher at Aquinas high school, he grows many different kinds of citrus, he chose Augusta specifically for the purpose of growing "subtropical" plants.
Quote:
I drove once from Augusta in the month of Jan straight down to Savannah. I don't care where you cherry pick photos but the coastal plain has far more broadleaf evergreens than upland GA.
Richmond and Aiken counties is the start of the coastal plain, only the northwestern counties of the CSRA are completely in the piedmont, somewhere like Rome Ga is typical of upland Ga.
Quote:
Where deciduous trees grow has to with both soil conditions and climate. Augusta has a lot more than Philadelphia, but soil type can change that. River bottom areas with rich soil are heavily deciduous in the SE because they grow quickly compared to broadleaf evergreens which garner energy from the sun in both winter and summer. Poor soil areas, the deciduous cannot compete with the broadleafs and you get more broadleafs and conifers.
I think in a previous post I alluded to this, more swampy areas have those large bald cypress trees, that's why some of the New Orleans area looks the way it does.
That guy is a teacher at Aquinas high school, he grows many different kinds of citrus, he chose Augusta specifically for the purpose of growing "subtropical" plants.
Richmond and Aiken counties is the start of the coastal plain, only the northwestern counties of the CSRA are completely in the piedmont, somewhere like Rome Ga is typical of upland Ga.
I think in a previous post I alluded to this, more swampy areas have those large bald cypress trees, that's why some of the New Orleans area looks the way it does.
I have visited and met Joe at the HS in January a few years ago. In fact, I have a list of everything that he was growing that he gave me. He also listed what did not survive the 2014 vortex. He lost a CIDP and does not grow then anymore on the property, though he was considering getting one again after a string of mild winters. Not sure if he ever did. I doubt it cause he would have put it on the FB group. I went back to Augusta again in winter and this time drove over to Aiken and then down to Beaufort. Beaufort was more green in january than Aiken.
I have tons of photos from Savannah, and Beaufort which show how green even outside of city parks. The boradleaf evergreen forest is native to the coastal areas, not Augusta. Those live oaks there are not native you see in Augusta. The book Travels by Bartram discusses what he saw in Augusta. He saw forests of longleaf pine.
There actually is native live oaks in Augusta, it's not quercus virginiana but it's quercus laurifolia and quercus hemisphaerica. They thin out a little on the edges of their outer branches but are mostly green through the winter here.
Prunus caroliniana is native as well and grows almost everywhere, it grows very thick in many forested areas. If you saw them at a distance they grow underneath pines mixed with winter deciduous trees like sweetgum, but it looks junglistic when you walk through them in winter like I have.
There are still vestiges of the longleaf pine forest around Fort Gordon and Grovetown.
Some people use flora to decide subtropical, I use temperatures first and foremost. If that means putting places like Richmond, Nashville and Tulsa on the upper limit, Trewartha got it right.
What if I find odd about the typical subtropical Koppen classification is that no one who lives in places like Philadelphia or NYC consider their climate sub tropical. No one.
How can a classification be useful when only climate nerds use it? Is DC subtropical? Ask non climate professionals, ya know, like ordinary residents that live there and there answer is usually a resounding NO. Most people in he NE USA know what a subtropical climate looks like.
Barcelona is a great example. Not nearly as hot as DC in summer, yet the landscape supports citrus, date palms, etc etc. People in DC would say Barcelona is, but DC is not. Vegetation plays a huge role in that. Joe90 is right about that.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,590 posts, read 14,718,701 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
What if I find odd about the typical subtropical Koppen classification is that no one who lives in places like Philadelphia or NYC consider their climate sub tropical. No one.
How can a classification be useful when only climate nerds use it? Is DC subtropical? Ask non climate professionals, ya know, like ordinary residents that live there and there answer is usually a resounding NO. Most people in he NE USA know what a subtropical climate looks like.
Barcelona is a great example. Not nearly as hot as DC in summer, yet the landscape supports citrus, date palms, etc etc. People in DC would say Barcelona is, but DC is not. Vegetation plays a huge role in that. Joe90 is right about that.
I consider climates with a coldest month between 0°C and 5.9°C, but also with 4 or more months 18°C+ to be temperate transitional. Too warm to be continental, but too cool to be subtropical, and too warm in summer to be oceanic
Last edited by FirebirdCamaro1220; 10-26-2021 at 11:55 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
