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Ahh the reductionism bent. I have stated issues with this guaranteed basic income, thus you with your keen analytical skills coupled with near godlike discernment have been reduced into a "bucket" with a bunch of stereotypical conspiracy hipster types, all while at the same time expressing your deep understanding of what goes on behind the curtain. I actually talk about the above topics (though perhaps with different slants then most...often). I wish I was as good as you...I'll keep striving.
Not hating on you man, just amused.
I'm not hating "on" ya either -- but you do sound like a classic conspiracy theorist; not my fault if you won't come out and say what you mean and instead use thriller-novel-back-cover-copy type of language, teasing readers as to what the big conspiracy could be....
Good questions, but you assume I want to keep that status quo, which I absolutely do not, or at least not how it operates in reality. That discussion would be interesting but outside of scope here.
Not necessarily -- since you seem to be such a skeptic of UBI and UBI's proponents claim it's actually a necessity now given technological developments, it would seem to behoove you to explain what you believe the solution could be.
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Originally Posted by infocyde
A brief taste would be for people to act morally, regardless of political persuasion, with all their cards in the open and on the table.
And how do you get there from here?
But UBI will go a long way towards encouraging morality as mundane pressures of existence are relieved and even eliminated in many cases, thereby eliminating the biggest incentives for most people to engage in immoral behavior ([perceived] scarcity of resources)....
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocyde
You want to reduce the earth's population down to 300 million?
Where did you get this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocyde
Fine, be open and honest about it. You want to be funded by some shadow group? Fine, admit it. etc... What we have now is hidden agendas and massive corruption. Expose the hidden, destroy the corrupt, and much of the ideological debates will fade away...
What shadow group, what hidden agenda...come on and say what you mean if you mean it.
Otherwise, don't be "amused" when you're taken for just another internet conspiracy theorist playing at "The Matrix" or something.
[quote=HomelessLoser;50264864]Sure they will. Human beings are naturally curious. Most people will want to learn -- only not jsut for a "job" but because it truly interests them...and they will be good at it since it's their love.
Right now, most people in any field of work are only minimally competent because they really don't care for their jobs. UBI will free people to do what they really want to do -- a classic case of economic efficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSFan
everyone's version of UBI has no "conditions" attached to it. Mine would be you report in for a "job"/training/etc (public service) and at the end of the day you can have your UBI money or you can find a job on your own terms
but this would be govt mandated jobs and a better minimum wage... so to me, we don't need UBI, we need a better system of what we have now, minimum wage/job expectation/current welfare system
You fail to understand UB
LOL -- check out some places without a functioning government and see how much "personal freedom" there is.
The whole point of government is to literally fund freedom! Even the ChiComs have tacitly acknowledged that.
It's not simply a lack of action, however...the whole reason why UBI is so seriously considered now is because the economy's so changed as to preclude work sufficient for a living for evermore people.
On a personal aside, MLSFan, I honestly believe that you're deliberately misconstruing UBI to yourself in order to satisfy some "hidden interest"...you've only been raising strawmen and I don't think it's because you're genuinely ignorant of UBI.
So let's just cut to the chase here and address what your real concern is, shall we?
What would you lose if there were UBI?
What would I, or anyone, lose? That very income that is being touted as the great hope. How long, exactly, do you think folks would continue working hard ("curious" or not) only to have their money taken from them to fund someone else's dream. It doesn't work that way.
For the record, I fully understand the concept. I don't think you fully understand human nature.
PS: the point of government is NOT to fund freedom.
No, it's not "paying people not to work"...rather, it's about paying people so they can be free to do work that's most meaningful for them -- an economic boon if you consider the fact that the overwhelming vast majority of workers are ill-matched with their occupations right now, never mind in the robotic reality to come.
There should certainly be fewer kids, but UBI's about more than population control. It's a moral argument about quality of life and the common good and an economic solution for the robotic reality to come.
I don't think work means what you think it means. If that "work" is worth something, then money will be exchanged for that work. What you're describing is a hobby or passion. While that can be, on occasion, turn into a paying job, it usually doesn't. Because only YOU find it meaningful. I would be more than irate to have my money taken so someone could sit around playing video games all day.
Sure they will. Human beings are naturally curious. Most people will want to learn -- only not jsut for a "job" but because it truly interests them...and they will be good at it since it's their love.
Right now, most people in any field of work are only minimally competent because they really don't care for their jobs. UBI will free people to do what they really want to do -- a classic case of economic efficiency.
What would I, or anyone, lose? That very income that is being touted as the great hope. How long, exactly, do you think folks would continue working hard ("curious" or not) only to have their money taken from them to fund someone else's dream. It doesn't work that way.
For the record, I fully understand the concept. I don't think you fully understand human nature.
PS: the point of government is NOT to fund freedom.
Everyone will because UBI wont preclude you from working more and making more. Most run of the mill middle class wont see really any tax changes, the tax changes will be at the corporate level at rates of 90% or more to fund UBI (if they don't reinvest in the company beyond a certain dollar amount in profits).
So a company can either specifically create jobs through the reinvestment (also the quality of those jobs would have to be specified) and the rest would go to fund UBI, it would be a delicate balance to ensure UBI is funded and that companies can still reinvest.
It does work because the USA actually did this back in the mid to late 40's and 50's. Corporate tax rates were 90% if they did not reinvest and so they did. The USA also did not have free trade and rampant immigration (unless you were truly someone, like a rocket scientist, etc). We have already demonstrated that it works. The only issue is the greedy, corrupt and immoral are running the govt.
You are already controlled, right now, today, and have been all your yesterdays and yesteryears....
UBI will allow for true freedom -- not only freedom from but freedom to....
And once you are dependent on that income and the gov't goes OOOPS no more money, we're cancelling UBI ... what will you do then? YOU WILL DO WHATEVER THEY TELL YOU TO DO.
UBI = true freedom??? You don't understand what true freedom is. TRUE FREEDOM is NOT a handout, holy trapezoid on a circle cracker, good GAWD almighty. Gov't handout = freedom????
I can only shake my head, in utter despair that people think this way.
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Not hating on you man, just amused.
