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I've seen a shocking number of expats leave China over the last year, though even for a couple years prior, the number expats I knew who were leaving was greater than the number of those coming in. There have been policy changes that make getting visas more difficult for some nationalities, increasing xenophobia along with the rise of nationalism, etc which have given a lot of people pause.
One of the trends that I noticed was that while you've always had the six month to two year crowd that cycles in and out, a lot of people I know who had been here for extended periods - 10, 15, 20 years - and were effectively permanently settled here with property and families have been leaving.
Yea, I hear you. I've known several people who've left and that's people that were pillars of the Shanghai expat cultural and business communities. Xi has been really ramping up the nationalism and cult of personality. There's also something to say in that Xi and his coterie might also be actually competent in many ways on top of the authoritarian and opaque governmental structure they have, so it's arguably quite a bit scarier.
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Originally Posted by Greysholic
At this exact moment I would say grass is indeed greener elsewhere as the Covid management in America has been a colossal embarrassment and the political scene is simply hard to watch, but normally I think America is pretty good.
That said, the pandemic has shown the world the laughable ineptitude of Western leadership. People just hear the most about America, the truth is the West, collectively, have failed miserably. No wonder Russia and China have been able to dance circles around the EU and the US for more than a decade. It's pathetic.
Russia's economy is a basket case and it has little signs of getting better. It's traditionally strong STEMs-oriented education no longer produces innovations at anywhere near the pace relative to other countries it used to and it's seeing a brain drain mostly to the west with fairly little returning (while China does have a substantial amount of returning or back-and-forth). China at least has its burgeoning economy and a massive uptick in infrastructure construction and scientific and engineering advancements.
Regardless, unless someone has some very particular personal contexts / situations, neither Russia nor China seem like particularly great places to go for greener pastures than the US.
Wait, what? How has Russia danced circles around the West and the US for more than a decade. I must've missed that decade. Please fill me in. I'm always up for the view from Taiwan.
Russia's interference in Western elections has been well-documented. It is widely acknowledged that Kremlin has been extremely successful in information warfare in America and Britain and in dividing opinions within the EU. The EU doesn't speak in one voice against one of its gravest security concerns at all because there are just too many loopholes for Russia to manoeuvre.
If you want more evidence, look no further than Malaysian Airline MH17. More than 200 EU civilians were brutally slaughtered by militants sponsored by Russia, and what consequences has Russia suffered? None. Yes, there have been sanctions and Ruble has been laughably worthless for years, but Russia's economy has always been a joke.
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Originally Posted by Oycrumbler
Russia's economy is a basket case and it has little signs of getting better. It's traditionally strong STEMs-oriented education no longer produces innovations at anywhere near the pace relative to other countries it used to and it's seeing a brain drain mostly to the west with fairly little returning (while China does have a substantial amount of returning or back-and-forth). China at least has its burgeoning economy and a massive uptick in infrastructure construction and scientific and engineering advancements.
Regardless, unless someone has some very particular personal contexts / situations, neither Russia nor China seem like particularly great places to go for greener pastures than the US.
Who's saying grass is greener in Russia? I am referring to Russia's manipulation in American politics. They have done incredibly well in that regard.
The same applies to China, though China's target in the West is mostly countries with large overseas Chinese communities such as Canada and Australia (and obviously Taiwan though that is beside the point). To the other countries they simply use economic might to silence them and get what they want, and the West obviously have no idea how to fight back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Invasion_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claws_of_the_Panda
Russia and China have been undermining Western democracy with its feature of freedom of expression for a very long time, especially in the past decade. Censorship isn't acceptable in the West so Russia and China happily exploit that fundamental value of liberalism. I am not arguing that Brexit or Trump were solely Russia's doing because that obviously wasn't the case, but it is hard to deny that a destablised West is what Russia wanted, and they did pour in effort in order to achieve that. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...es-to-beijing/
Last edited by Greysholic; 10-05-2020 at 10:05 AM..
I am referring to Russia's manipulation in American politics. They have done incredibly well in that regard.
To this day, there is no evidence that Russian attempts to interfere in recent American elections have changed a single vote. Many years and tens of millions of dollars have been spent investigating this. If you have heard differently from any media sources, then they are lying to you.
However, it is true that countries try to influence or interfere in foreign elections all the time and this has been going on for decades if not centuries.
To this day, there is no evidence that Russian attempts to interfere in American elections have changed a single vote. Many years and tens of millions of dollars have been spent investigating this. If you have heard differently from any media sources, then they are lying to you.
It is impossible to actually know if Russian attempts to interfere in American elections have changed any vote as people's political views are volatile and highly susceptible to the information obtained, and false information was on full rage before (and after) the 2016 elections. There is a reason why many democracies are attempting to regulate fake news.
China and Russia definitely do exploit the west's freedom of information. Prior to the explosion of social media and smartphone culture, it was more difficult to exploit this on a wide or national scale, but now, since most people get their news headlines from FB and Twitter and algorithms determine what people see the most so that those companies make more money with use, it's much easier to exploit existing western discord.
Not the most popular opinion, but, from my experience living in China, I think that the best course that western countries can take if they want to preserve domestic freedom of speech but not be subject to such massive foreign interference is to pass laws that do restrict or prohibit foreign governments and their organs from advertising, investing in or supporting media agencies that are available in their countries. Make available for private internet companies software that identifies where all this is coming from and mandate that social media platforms including forums that are based in the US actively restrict these organizations from operating. On the one hand, I understand the concern that freedom of speech is being impinged upon, but these countries do not reciprocate by allowing free Western media on their borders. The second amendment allows us to own firearms in the US but we (legally) restrict access to felons, and if someone is using a legally compliant firearm for malicious criminal purposes, they will be met with force. I see this situation as no different, in all honesty.
The Russians are much better with propaganda abroad than the Chinese are; it's probably due to cultural proximity to the west, and also because Russia doesn't have expeditionary, neo-colonialist goals, so its propaganda focuses almost entirely on Western issues. They are more likely to use blogs, articles on "news" pages, etc to get their info across, and when you do encounter someone who's almost certainly posting on behalf of the Russian government online, they seem to purposely avoid any mention of Russia or Putin and don't directly respond to direct insults to them, instead insulting of discrediting the critic or their nation.
Chinese propaganda tends to denigrate the West while boosting China and its leaders, in a way that makes it patently obvious you're dealing with a wumao - honestly, no Western, populist, anti-government conspiracy theorist is going to suddenly tell you that BRI is the best economic program in modern history, use XJP thought as a counter-argument, or start throwing translations of Chinese proverbs at you... Russia, I think, realizes that the West doesn't have a positive opinion of their government and mistrusts them, and thus views attempts to control their narrative as a lost cause. Their main goal is simply destabilizing the West and then seeking opportunities in the ensuing chaos; since it's a war, of sorts, they don't expect the enemy to "like" them or pay them any sort of tribute... They simply want to inflict damage upon their enemy; they want to see the US and its allies hit a depression and its industry and commerce dry up completely, as happened to it 30 years ago. Once the playing field is leveled, then they can work on ideologies and public perception.
China is on a quest for "national rejuvenation" where it seeks to attain what it believes is its rightful place at the top and center of the world, and demands constant affirmation of its greatness as such. Not so much as it wants to see the West crumble into a place like itself in the 1950's or Russia after 1991, it wants to see itself outpace them, and those places forced to accept and trumpet China's might and virtue.
It is impossible to actually know if Russian attempts to interfere in American elections have changed any vote as people's political views are volatile and highly susceptible to the information obtained, and false information was on full rage before (and after) the 2016 elections. There is a reason why many democracies are attempting to regulate fake news.
I remember during the Bush years, the big thing were chain emails... Lots of the conservative folks I knew got and read chain emails that supposedly were the "real truth," all of it made-up BS, but they were a major thing. I think that there's a good likelihood that Russian interference has had some effect though it's not sensible to pin the entire fracas on them. They're simply exploiting existing cultural rifts.
I remember reading that it turned out one of the top BLM pages during the last election cycle was actually created and maintained by Russians... They play both sides of the fence, helping to cultivate a sense desperation and hopelessness in both sides and then steer that towards divergent ends to create an unmanageable rift, rather than trying to point everyone in one direction.
It is impossible to actually know if Russian attempts to interfere in American elections have changed any vote as people's political views are volatile and highly susceptible to the information obtained, and false information was on full rage before (and after) the 2016 elections. There is a reason why many democracies are attempting to regulate fake news.
Everybody thinks that news which opposes their own political opinions or world view is fake news/ misinformation.
This is a world-wide phenomenon as far as I can tell.
China and Russia definitely do exploit the west's freedom of information. Prior to the explosion of social media and smartphone culture, it was more difficult to exploit this on a wide or national scale, but now, since most people get their news headlines from FB and Twitter and algorithms determine what people see the most so that those companies make more money with use, it's much easier to exploit existing western discord.
Exactly.
Quote:
Not the most popular opinion, but, from my experience living in China, I think that the best course that western countries can take if they want to preserve domestic freedom of speech but not be subject to such massive foreign interference is to pass laws that do restrict or prohibit foreign governments and their organs from advertising, investing in or supporting media agencies that are available in their countries. Make available for private internet companies software that identifies where all this is coming from and mandate that social media platforms including forums that are based in the US actively restrict these organizations from operating. On the one hand, I understand the concern that freedom of speech is being impinged upon, but these countries do not reciprocate by allowing free Western media on their borders. The second amendment allows us to own firearms in the US but we (legally) restrict access to felons, and if someone is using a legally compliant firearm for malicious criminal purposes, they will be met with force. I see this situation as no different, in all honesty.
The Russians are much better with propaganda abroad than the Chinese are; it's probably due to cultural proximity to the west, and also because Russia doesn't have expeditionary, neo-colonialist goals, so its propaganda focuses almost entirely on Western issues. They are more likely to use blogs, articles on "news" pages, etc to get their info across, and when you do encounter someone who's almost certainly posting on behalf of the Russian government online, they seem to purposely avoid any mention of Russia or Putin and don't directly respond to direct insults to them, instead insulting of discrediting the critic or their nation.
Chinese propaganda tends to denigrate the West while boosting China and its leaders, in a way that makes it patently obvious you're dealing with a wumao - honestly, no Western, populist, anti-government conspiracy theorist is going to suddenly tell you that BRI is the best economic program in modern history, use XJP thought as a counter-argument, or start throwing translations of Chinese proverbs at you... Russia, I think, realizes that the West doesn't have a positive opinion of their government and mistrusts them, and thus views attempts to control their narrative as a lost cause. Their main goal is simply destabilizing the West and then seeking opportunities in the ensuing chaos; since it's a war, of sorts, they don't expect the enemy to "like" them or pay them any sort of tribute... They simply want to inflict damage upon their enemy; they want to see the US and its allies hit a depression and its industry and commerce dry up completely, as happened to it 30 years ago. Once the playing field is leveled, then they can work on ideologies and public perception.
China is on a quest for "national rejuvenation" where it seeks to attain what it believes is its rightful place at the top and center of the world, and demands constant affirmation of its greatness as such. Not so much as it wants to see the West crumble into a place like itself in the 1950's or Russia after 1991, it wants to see itself outpace them, and those places forced to accept and trumpet China's might and virtue.
There are obviously some commonalities: Both China and Russia see influence operations, including disinformation, as a normal activity. Both are using such operations domestically, to suppress dissent and control what people think, even though they are doing it differently: Russia and China actually represent two different models of domestic control of information — the former based on manipulation and the latter on censorship — and these two different models of “digital authoritarianism” are exported. Moreover, both consider this activity as a part of normal politics, while Western democracies tend to limit it to a wartime activity.
However, there are important differences as well. First, their position in the world: China is stronger than Russia and fights from a dominant position, with many other levers, including money (economic incentives, corruption). Most of the time, it does not need to resort to disinformation to influence. Also, benefiting from the current world order, China’s goal is not to break it, but to shape it. And the Chinese leaders believe time is on their side, so they can practice strategic patience.
Russia, on the other hand, is weaker. A declining power, it does not have many levers against others and therefore resorts to weakening them internally, to lower them to its level. Not benefiting from the current world order, it is disruptive; and not knowing what its future will look like, it does not have time on its side and is, therefore, more proactive and prone to risk. In other words and from an American perspective, Russia is a rogue, while China is a peer.
It can be a very good experience to live abroad, especially if you aren't happy with where you are living. You may end up appreciating the US more or maybe not, depending on what you are looking for. If you are under 30 it's easier to get a work holiday visa (though probably not during this time with covid).
My husband and I often talked about moving abroad over the years though not really for political reasons but more as an adventure. As a RN I can work in different countries since there is usually a need for that field. Last year we were strongly leaning towards Australia and had even retained an immigration attorney (had to be English speaking) but ultimately stayed here and decided to move to another state instead. The issue was that I just dont want to start over career wise, or start at the bottom again in a new company etc. I have a good job here where I WFH FT and have good pay and benefits, lots of PTO etc. Maybe I'm just more tired as I'm older now or more comfortable.
The one issue we do have with the US is the Healthcare. It's good but ridiculously expensive and medication costs are insane. It makes no sense that I could drive to Mexico and get the same name brand med for a fraction of the cost as here. And many providers recommend their patients do this (we lived in San Diego). Thats our main gripe about here, especially since health is really the most important thing to most people. No idea why its not more regulated (ie being able to get prices up front for surgeries/procedures, lower med costs, etc). I now work for an insurance company and we can easily negotiate these things with doctors beforehand so no idea why they make it so difficult for individuals to do so.
Ultimately we like the US but our healthcare needs serious improvement.
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