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There is no justification unless we look at ourselves and ask why we keep getting sucked in
Sort of like slowing down to look at a bad traffic accident. There's some morbid curiosity factor or we're just masochists
It is like a fly....we tolerate and try to ignore the buzzing, but now and then we take a swipe at it even though we know it won't accomplish anything.
It is like a fly....we tolerate and try to ignore the buzzing, but now and then we take a swipe at it even though we know it won't accomplish anything.
It is like a fly....we tolerate and try to ignore the buzzing, but now and then we take a swipe at it even though we know it won't accomplish anything.
That wasn't a fly buzzing - that was someone farting. We would prefer to ignore it, but we feel obliged to explain to everyone else there that it wasn't us.
That's one reason why we bother to respond. If we don't feel that a post is going to impact us...we let it buzz...
Somewhere in the last day or so, and I'm not about to invest time searching for it, Ozzy gave us a short summary of why he believes. I can sum it up with a sentence...."There must be a creator, look at all this stuff."
That apparently represents the depths to which he is willing to explore. The obvious questions and counter arguments have been presented to Ozzy numerous times, but rather than even consider any conflicting position, Ozzy changes the subject or fails to respond at all.
This has been the unchanging dynamic with him for a considerable length of time so it becomes increasingly harder to justify bothering with him.
Overall I agree with you, although I'm not sure how much any of us grow and change over these short periods of time. I forget who it is...it may be someone who frequents another part of the forum, used to talk about "us" (meaning most posters) having a mind mired in cement. There's some truth to that. But on the other hand, some of us have also done a fair amount of changing in our lives when it comes to religious beliefs. I was raised a Methodist, converted to become a Catholic, transformed into a Buddhist-Christian, and finally just short of 60 years after my first family visit to a church I threw up my hands and said is just manure. The evidence is not there. And in between that I fought the psychological battle between religion and evolution (and the rest of science) while in my major at university. Over the long term, I've evolved greatly in my thinking. And I have don't to be an expert at the bible to know the basics of what I believe, any more than the vast majority of christians are experts on the bible. Most christians sit in church occasionally, nod their heads, and then walk out the door pretty much forgetting what the minister talked about. But no, according to Ozzy, apparently it doesn't work the other way...non-believers have to be experts. Bull toddy.
And when people stand up to Ozzy and his countless efforts to put us down, then he cries about how mean everyone is. Hey Ozzy, you've got god on your side...that's all you should need.
Well, once again Ozzy, you don't know what you are talking about, and you seem to forget everything that is said to you. Please remember this:
A significant percentage of the regular members posting in this forum were once devout Christians. At some point in their lives as Christians, they began to have doubts about the beliefs their churches taught. In order to dispel those doubts, they started reading their Bibles, reading over and over, from front to back, trying as hard as they could to dispel those doubts. It's a pretty serious thing to begin to have doubts about the eternal salvation you have been taught since infancy, so they studied the Bible intently to prove to themselves that it was true and their doubts could go away.
For those regulars I'm talking about here, it did not work. The more they studied their Bibles, the more they learned that what they had been taught in church failed to make sense to them and great portions of the Bible were overlooked. Gradually, they came to disbelieve what their churches taught and they became atheists.
Please remember this. Most of these people in this forum know the Bible better than you do, and better than most of the regular posters in the Christianity sub-forum as well.
You don't have to take my word for this. First, go search for the threads here that have discussed the topic. (It has come up several times.) Second, pay attention to what they post, and believe what they tell you. Third, ask them, pay attention to what they tell you, and remember what they say.
Please remember this. This is the truth for a large number of the regulars in this forum.
Incidentally, this is also an answer to the questions asked in the OP.
There is a difference when a person reads the Bible in an attempt to dispel doubts or to find faith. There is already some doubt, then it just gets worse and they begin to ridicule the entire thing.
Personally, I have no problem with atheists not wanting to believe in religion. But when they have the attitude of Ridicule regarding a religious text, it is not even possible for them to have anything more than a superficial understanding of it. They don't have to appreciate the Bible, that's their choice, but they can't call themselves experts on it, because their complete dismissal of it is evidence that they understand very little about it.
Perfect Ozzy, here is your chance with an atheist audience to explain the context and meaning of these enduring stories....do you need someone to pick one? Pick one you can explain...regarding murder, stoning, flooding, raping, smashing babies against rocks...pick
any that you believe a child could laugh at as superficial understanding.
What a perfect platform! I am not mocking you...this is a good platform to explain.
Go for it.
I don't claim to understand every book and every story. That's up to the individual religious believer. I think that people generally respond to teachers who share the same beliefs they do. And that probably includes atheist/agnostic teachers like Richard Carrier and Bart Ehrman appealing more to people on this forum, and both of whom I respect.
I would direct you to John Dominic Crossan if you want to understand better how I see the Bible. His beliefs are not exactly like mine, but he is a lot better at explaining his views than I am.
George Carlin said that at the Catholic school he attended, the Priests went out of their way to encourage critical thinking. The result was that Carlin and many of the other students became atheists.
There has never been a bigger fan of George Carlin than myself. And I have enjoyed his religious material just as much as anything. But he is a perfect example of what I am talking about, for example.
Since you claim to have a deep understanding of the Bible how about answering a direct question. Is God fully omnipotent and omniscient... or does God make mistakes?
I tend to not think that way as a Theist, but I am agnostic on that particular mystery.
There's another dynamic to what would otherwise make Ozzy an 'irreligious Theist' (Aka Agnostic) and thus someone who COULD put himself down as a "None" and be in fact, on the atheist side rather that swiping at us all the time.
That dynamic is a very familiar one and comes in three sizes.
Ozzy size - an attachment to the Bible and religion they no longer believe and try to validate it through the "Bible has Good Things in" - it is important for a way to live or just a foundation of western culture.
The Bulmabrief size - belief in First -cause -god and feeling the need to reinforce this belief (often fielding I/D arguments) by selling it to atheists and taking it as a personal affront when we don't buy it.
The Arach size - those who detest "New" atheism for non -religious reasons. Dislike of left wing liberalism, usually. I remember clicking on a vid 'reasons to reject atheism'. First one 'Atheism is in favor of Big Government'. Unclick. What a crummy argument! But some do begin with that dynamic. They see us as a threat to the way of life they like.
I've tried the Irreligious path. I have respect for those who are there, but it's not for me.
I've tried the Irreligious path. I have respect for those who are there, but it's not for me.
Why not? I saw you interact with that JW and I have to wonder if you are looking for a group. I think you can figure this out on your own.
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