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Ozzy, mate, why should i scare you with words and arguments? My Agenda? The New Atheist mission? I've told you what it is - what Christians tell us they want: "Let everyone believe what they want" Which means a socially level playing field where no religion dominates. Which Isn't what they want. They mean "Let us believe what we want without anyone putting nasty Doubts into our heads". Let's have 'Blaspheny law'. Let's make the Bible the only Lawbook, science book and Christianity the state religion, and Reinterpret the constitution to make it say so. What other people want to believe can be evangelised, coerced or Leganized out of them. That's what should scare you, as it scares us. What we are fighting against - and I've told you this before - is fighting for your right to walk out of a church if you disagree with the teachings.
What, exactly do I say that scares you?
What scares me is that you can't accept reality. Reality is that most people are religious. There is a huge mystery and that is going to be filled with Something rather than nothing. Why can't you accept that most people are going to believe in Something?
You seem determined to want to change that. And I wonder what steps you would take to make things "right" in the world. What is the final solution that could ever satisfy this mad desire of extreme atheists?
That's kind of scary too. You are saying that you are the only one with the truth.
Is there any limit to how you will spread your message of "truth" to ensure that everyone believes correctly?
An important point to make, and this is paraphrasing Russell, but it's not what you believe, but the way you hold your beliefs. If you hold your beliefs tentatively, subject to more convincing evidence, should it arise, then your thought is free, however odd your conclusions might be.
This is an important point because it changes the argument from factual conclusions to method, and essentially ends the argument.
An important point to make, and this is paraphrasing Russell, but it's not what you believe, but the way you hold your beliefs. If you ho!d your beliefs tentatively, subject to more convincing evidence, should it arise, then your thought is free, however odd your conclusions might be.
This is an important point because it changes the argument from factual conclusions to method, and essentially ends the argument.
Arach said it better than anyone I've heard. Religion and atheism, and the degrees in between, are a result of personality type. Maybe I'm paraphrasing Arach, but that's the understanding I have. Let people be free to discover who they are and try to live in peace with everyone believing what he wants to believe, however odd or strange their belief might appear.
Well, according to the Bible, God regretted having made man and decided to drown all humans in a flood, except Noah and (at least) some of his family members.
If you regret having done something, thats a mistake isnt it? And this omniscient God seems to have been caught unawares at how evil men were. Further, He did not seem to connect the dots that Noah's descendants might also be evil. And they must have been, because it wasn't too long before God wanted the Hebrews to commit multiple counts of genocide and rid Canaan of the Ammonites, the Hittites, etc.
So, that doesnt sound omniscient to me.
And if God cannot be persuaded, why do people pray and ask Him for things?
Well, according to the Bible, God regretted having made man and decided to drown all humans in a flood, except Noah and (at least) some of his family members.
If you regret having done something, thats a mistake isnt it? And this omniscient God seems to have been caught unawares at how evil men were. Further, He did not seem to connect the dots that Noah's descendants might also be evil. And they must have been, because it wasn't too long before God wanted the Hebrews to commit multiple counts of genocide and rid Canaan of the Ammonites, the Hittites, etc.
So, that doesnt sound omniscient to me.
And if God cannot be persuaded, why do people pray and ask Him for things?
People pray because they know that prayer works for some things if they are in the right spirit. But they will pray for pretty much anything at their personal whim also, in the hopes that it will work for whatever they want. As far as what kind of prayer works, and how it works, your guess is as good as mine.
What scares me is that you can't accept reality. Reality is that most people are religious. There is a huge mystery and that is going to be filled with Something rather than nothing. Why can't you accept that most people are going to believe in Something?
You seem determined to want to change that. And I wonder what steps you would take to make things "right" in the world. What is the final solution that could ever satisfy this mad desire of extreme atheists?
You had better ask the "Extreme atheists" as I've never met any. Reality is - as visiting JW Brian asked "What then, is Your Truth?" whatever really is. It is what it is, and all that we have to do with it is find out what it is. And the "Reality" that you speak of is one that you and other theists - well, they accept it, as much as atheists do - but they will not See that they do.
They live in a world that uses and relies on technology - the findings of science, and on a human moral code that (for all they claim) is NOT the Biblical one. Even if it (and indeed science) originated in religion, it has progressed and shed the guesswork and supposition of religion, Superstition and magic.
Understanding and acceptance of that fact is what i want to see, not blindly crediting it to a religion that does not deserve the credit and rather, works to retard it (to use the airline term that seems absolutely apposite ).
The Unknowns are the raw material of science, but rather than fill them with fantasies that are then claimed as fact (hypotheses that are known to be as yet unproven, are fine) "Don't know -Yet" is the right answer. Not some Old guesswork presented as fact that should not be questioned and any discovery that undermines it should be ignored. That has got to be wrong, and bad for us. But we are told that Faith is Good.
And when that Faith and the dismissal of everything that conflicts with it is pushed as what should be our lawbooks, our science book and the oracle that we go to for everything - that scares me - as it should scare you.
I've said before - you can believe what you want. Atheism doesn't stop me enjoying Bach's Matthew passion or enjoying Ramayana performances or indeed Churches, temples and Mosques (if they have some historic or artistic merit; just as misinformation centres, they can bulldoze them for all i care) nor does any Bible student have to fear that it will cease to be valued as literature. Ozzy, you are frightened of the wrong people.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-28-2018 at 09:01 PM..
Arach said it better than anyone I've heard. Religion and atheism, and the degrees in between, are a result of personality type. Maybe I'm paraphrasing Arach, but that's the understanding I have. Let people be free to discover who they are and try to live in peace with everyone believing what he wants to believe, however odd or strange their belief might appear.
Arach is wrong and for the wrong reasons. But he Sounds right to a lot of people because they haven't thought it through.
God exists or doesn't. When one claims the sun rises in the east and the other claims it rises in the west, one is right and the other wrong. The right answer is not 'In the Middle'
That said, determining whether the god claim is right or wrong isn't so easy. We know about the various gods of the religions and the Firstcause god. I won't go over those again. Those are the only god -claims that are worth a debate.
Labeling nature "God" is a trick unless you can validate a volitional entity apart from known physical laws. Postulating a god that cannot be demonstrated is postulating a god that merits no belief.
Thus the atheist position is non -belief until there is reason to believe. We are the middle position between belief without good reason and rejection without any reason (effectively disbelievers who haven't thought about it).
Arach pulls this trick, (disguising the plate of crap with a piquant sauce of accusations of bias using parlour psychology) not because he doesn't know better (we told him often enough) but because he dislikes what he (with some cause) thinks are our politics. The bias is all his - projected onto us.
Wrong argument, wrong reason. It is tempting to give the thumbs up to anyone who comes up with a slapdown of atheism that you hadn't thought of, but believe me - Arach is an investment in alchemy.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-28-2018 at 10:11 PM..
That's kind of scary too. You are saying that you are the only one with the truth.
Is there any limit to how you will spread your message of "truth" to ensure that everyone believes correctly?
Not just me...but most of the atheists on here do seek the truth, while you just keep telling old, worn out stories and live in your echo chamber.
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Ozzy, mate, why should i scare you with words and arguments? My Agenda? The New Atheist mission? I've told you what it is - what Christians tell us they want: "Let everyone believe what they want" Which means a socially level playing field where no religion dominates. Which Isn't what they want. They mean "Let us believe what we want without anyone putting nasty Doubts into our heads". Let's have 'Blaspheny law'. Let's make the Bible the only Lawbook, science book and Christianity the state religion, and Reinterpret the constitution to make it say so. What other people want to believe can be evangelised, coerced or Leganized out of them. That's what should scare you, as it scares us. What we are fighting against - and I've told you this before - is fighting for your right to walk out of a church if you disagree with the teachings. 
