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I was wondering how you would respond to these atheist's quotes in regards to morality and meaning. The first is by Aldous Huxley, the author or "A Brave New World". It is from his book "Ends and Means". (I'm not entirely sure Huxley is an atheist)
"Science does not have the right to give to me my reason for being. But I am going to take science’s view because I want this world not to have meaning. A meaningless world frees me to pursue my own erotic and political desires.”
Thomas Nagel, professor of philosophy at NYU:
“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions… in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper – namely the fear of religion itself… I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God, and naturally, hope there is no God. I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that (The Last Word).”
Just as people with religious beliefs have wildly differing opinions and ideas, so too do atheists. Simply because someone who claims to be an atheist makes a statement of opinion does not mean that all other atheists will automatically agree with them.
Just as people with religious beliefs have wildly differing opinions and ideas, so too do atheists. Simply because someone who claims to be an atheist makes a statement of opinion does not mean that all other atheists will automatically agree with them.
I understand that. I didn't quote those authors to box you in, I wanted to know how you would respond to them. What do you think about their statements?
"Science does not have the right to give to me my reason for being. But I am going to take science’s view because I want this world not to have meaning. A meaningless world frees me to pursue my own erotic and political desires.”
The way I view this statement is as such:
First, I'd like to say I tend to agree with this quote. The way I see it, if this world has a meaning, or the way I view it, an ulterior motive than we're nothing more than pawns in some sort of celestial chess game. That seems to cheapen the wonderful element of life in and of itself. I think that when you look at the Earth as well as the universe from a strictly scientific viewpoint (evolution, cosmology, etc...) that you realize just how lucky we are to be here. And you can take that any way you'd like. In one sense, you can consider yourself lucky that you were one of millions of sperm that just so happened to make it to the egg - talk about survival of the fittest! And on the other hand, you can look back on an extraordinary journey of the "creation" of the universe and the processes that flowered within it to lead to the formation of a planet that allowed for the growth of life that eventually led to each and every one of our presences. To me, it makes me respect this life so much more than the feeling I get from religion in that I'm being "used" for some sort of ulterior motive.
I get the impression that what Huxley (who I believe coined the term "Agnostic" to describe himself?) was not necessarily referring to the words "erotic" and "political" in the colloquial sense but in that of how we pursue our desires and the way we live our lives. A life without meaning, as in not being a chess piece that has to obey the wishes of the master, allows me to have a free-thinking mind and to deduce for myself what is right and wrong based on the moral standards not only set within society but also in understanding the certain platitudes of moral reciprocity that often accompany good moral actions. I think that no plan, chess game, or "meaning" need to be attributed to that as I think that any rational and logical human being is capable and perhaps even willing to fit within those guidelines. Mostly, I feel that way because we as a species would not have survived our earliest and darkest days without being able to reciprocate and fit within our societal guidelines. It's ominously clear that morals tend to change from place to place but ultimately the deepest and strictest societal laws (murder, rape, etc...) seem to me to be ingrained in the human persona as something that goes to our earliest roots of humanity. No deity required - just add humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tic_constant
It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God, and naturally, hope there is no God. I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that (The Last Word).”
The first part of the quote seems to go hand in hand with my above statement - in my opinion; so I'll focus only on the part that I left quoted.
I don't want there to be a God either. I shiver at the thought of a divine Peeping Tom watching every move I make and jotting it down in his little black book to record for future reference upon my death. In every sense of the word, it feels to me to be the most restricting, repugnant, and downright awful thing to be a part of a world in which your every move is watched. I feel like I do a pretty good job at governing myself and my morality. I strive to make every effort to fit in with my fellow human beings. I do what I can to help those who need to be helped. I'm not a vile, wretched human being that needs to be watched. I'm by no means perfect but I don't like to be judged on my imperfection in the sense that religion dictates I am being judged. What good does it do me to worry about every single iota of my life and whether or not it makes me good in the eyes of a deity? And furthermore, how do I know whether or not I am doing good in the eyes of a deity when the very judgments and "rules" of religion seem to be wrought from the depths of the humanity and society I described earlier? I don't find the notion of a God to be a pleasant one at all. At least, of course, in the sense of a celestial voyeur.
The fact of the matter is that I am willing to bet that most people are concerned about something they have done in their life or are not proud of something they've done in their life. We're all human. We all make mistakes. But why would I want to further the humility by wondering if the cosmic Big Brother is angry or upset with me? I can't imagine living my life worried about how I have sex, who I have sex with, who should marry or shouldn't marry, what a woman does with her body, whether or not I should wear white shoes on a certain date, or if I should eat meat on Friday's. What does that get me? An eternal reward?
No, I don't want there to be a God at all. Yet, please don't confuse that for why I don't believe. Most people consider that my excuse for not believing in a God - in that I am somehow angry or fearful of him and disbelieve for those reasons alone. I am very angry with George Bush and I am also quite fearful of him but I also realize that he is a very real person and unfortunately a part of my life in some capacity. The same can go for God, I suppose with the happy exception that I am glad there is not sufficient evidence to support the existence of such a horrible, wretched being. Because I honestly feel that if there is indeed a God and whether he is the one of the Christians, the ancient Greeks, the Egyptians, or any of the other thousands of Gods this world has worshipped that he is not really worthy of worship at all in so much as the fact that I find it unnecessary to be a part of his/her chess game.
My disliking of the notion of God seems to inhibit me from trying to take a leap of faith (faith being belief without evidence) in trying to put myself under the banner of religious belief and does not suggest that it is evidence for non-existence. To sum it up: I am thoroughly happy that there is no supporting evidence to suggest a God exists and I would probably be very depressed to find out that one did.
Edit: Correction - It was Thomas Huxley who coined the term "Agnostic" not Aldous Huxley. I mean, come on, how many friggin' Huxley's do there have to be?!
The world only has meaning because we give our life meaning.
Only very depressed people will tell you that the world has no meaning, because their life has lost all meaning (which, unless they are born with a chemical imbalance, is why they're depressed).
Whether there is a God or there is no God actually is irrelevant if we are unable to give our life some meaning.
Edit: Correction - It was Thomas Huxley who coined the term "Agnostic" not Aldous Huxley. I mean, come on, how many friggin' Huxley's do there have to be?!
The world only has meaning because we give our life meaning.
Only very depressed people will tell you that the world has no meaning, because their life has lost all meaning (which, unless they are born with a chemical imbalance, is why they're depressed).
Whether there is a God or there is no God actually is irrelevant if we are unable to give our life some meaning.
I agree with this. We either give our lives meaning or we do not. No magic guy in the sky is needed.
I tend to think that if one is incapable of giving one's life meaning without belief in some mythical super being, it is a sad statement about that life.
I also wondered about the title of the thread and let me make a guess. I suspect that tic_constant went looking for statements made by agnostics or atheists that would make us look bad as though all of us atheists should finally just fess up to our selfish reasons for being atheists in the first place and admit that atheism is just a self serving, egotistical view of the universe. Is that close?
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Whether there is a God or there is no God actually is irrelevant if we are unable to give our life some meaning.
