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Actually, I see Stone Mountain as a symbol of white supremacy, moreso than a monument to confederates.
It is an interesting geological site, but that interest for me was hijacked when racist people, in an attempt to broadcast their white supremacist ideology placed those figures on the front of the mountain.
And to the poster who mentioned that "black people go there" I am well aware of that, the friend who wanted me to go to the park and who I went with was black and she spoke multiple times about how "it doesn't mean that anymore." To both myself and to my husband who never wanted to go either. People reason away things they don't want to think about, or just flat out ignore the carving on the mountain and choose instead to focus on the hotel or nature or fishing, etc. And that is their perogative, but as stated, I know too much about this history and especially the effect the system of white supremacy has on black people to this day. It is easy for you to ignore because it doesn't affect and hasn't affected you like it has my family in particular.
And nothing has gone backwards as of late. You just never paid attention to these topics prior to them being pushed more and more by the media. They have always been around. Hopefully, being a southerner, you know that there has been debate about both Stone Mountain and the confederate flag for decades, since these things came into existence, these are not new ideas.
The whole re-writing of history or that "things are worse" in regards to race relations comments, I'm sorry but they are extremely laughable to me. They show to me that people who believe those things have been actively ignoring a percentage of Americans for many years. And for me that is telling in light of this conversation being that as soon as it is mentioned that blacks suffered, there was a countering about the suffering of whites in the south as if their suffering was anyway equal to black. The whole black inferiority thing that lasted for nearly 100 years (and IMO which is still prevalent today as is evidenced by these sorts of conversations) and which denied blacks protection of the law and educational opportunities and opportunities for wealth accumulation are all things that whites ignored and never paid attention to even though blacks have been shouting and trying to get attention to them forever. You all just focus on MLK. Which even though he is admirable, he is not the culmination of the black experience in the south or America at large. People were working before him and after him to curtail the white supremacist ideology and government in this country and still are and were in the 1970s (which is how redlining was made illegal), the 1980s, the 1990s (president Clinton actually "apologized" for lynching) and the early 2000s. Nothing has gotten worse it is just those struggles are more in your face now than they were previously and it is making you pay attention.
I have also encountered similar conversational topics just speaking of black history in this country. No one cares about anything outside of Civil Rights and the old adage of "ignorance is bliss" is very true when it comes to these sorts of historical things. On Stone Mountain and other places like it, I am not ignorant about it and due to that I cannot ignore the fact that those carvings were put there to intimidate civil rights workers and to highlight the white supremacist ideology of many Georgia residents. I cannot in good conscience have a good time in nature with that literally looming over me. Other people can, but as said, I do a lot of research and have since I was a teen and this sort of thing just stays with me and I just cannot overlook it to catch fish or go on a hike. I can go other places to do those things.
I take every one of your points as valid. Definitely. I do not deny one single point.
But you assume that every white person that visits is looking at this as a part of history from only the white angle. That whites do not feel the shame and burden of slavery, whether their family were slave owners or not, just knowing that people were enslaved and treated on this turf as such is a painful, gut wrenching thought to comprehend. When I see memorials to the Civil War, for whatever reason the people that erected them did (and one cannot assume it was only for white supremacist ideals), I do imagine the life that millions suffered and lived under. I also think of my ancestors being born in such a time and that this way of life was the norm and how they reacted and thought of it all. It is sobering all the way around.
The park in their presentation and laser light show surely have made light of this reality... I mean it is a place to go for a getaway and relax and be entertained... how could they accurately depict the harsh reality of such a way of life? But even though they white wash it (no pun intended), the truth still percolates up to anyone with half a brain. How we deal with this legacy is going to differ from individual to individual certainly.... you have black friends that enjoy the park and don't feel the pain you do. I have white friends that visit and don't think about these issues like I do either.
And yes, we are in a worse place than before. I am old enough to have gone to elementary school in the late 60s when we still had separate schools. I can see the black maids in our neighborhood waiting for their rides just like was seen in the movie "The Help." I can remember the train tracks in my hometown of Hogansville being the clear delineation of where blacks lived and whites lived. The doctors clinic in Greenville to this day has two separate entrances. I can remember the N word being used casually by whites (never in my home mind you.... would get a mouth full of soap). My Baptist preacher grandfather was reviled by some because of his support of Civil Rights. I remember the young preacher we had in the early 70s preaching in the black church down the road and two families leaving the church.
Now that church has black members. Now AAs live on the east side of the tracks in Hogansville. The two entrances at the clinic are now for sick patients and well patients. At my high school reunions, the majority of my black classmates have achieved what their parents never dreamed of, college educations, professional careers. White and Black have intermarried and raised families and the world didn't end.
So, all this transition in just my lifetime. Is it finished, have we arrived, is MLKs dream a reality? No, by all means it hasn't happened fully. But it has happened and continues to become a reality in many, many lives.
Perhaps my feeling that feelings are worse is that I am now bombarded by anger from so many angles. I have tried to have conversations on Facebook with some friends on racial issues and I get hit with the "you are not black so you cannot know what it means" Played as if it is a trump card and anything I have to add to the conversation is therefore invalid. And if white people like me, Christian, conservative, but with a true heart for reconciliation are told they have no place at the table, where are we going as a country if the ideal is now to win the conversation at all costs? I have wanted to throw my hands in the air and forget it and not want to engage in the conversation when I get met with this mindset, but I am still drawn in. I still believe we can do better as a people.
Didn't mean to go on so... More than just the topic of this thread for sure. But with all the rhetoric from all sides dating back to.... I guess the Florida incident where the white (hispanic) dude killed the young black guy in the neighborhood.... I have seen a turn in the conversation. I understand the frustration AAs face... not to the point that they themselves understand it, I never will be able to. But I do want to say, hey, here is a white guy that really is on your side and you are pushing me away.
Thought that was an interesting article. Especially how Atlanta Blacks back then viewed the Cyclorama much as many view Stone Mountain, despite the fact that it depicted a Northern victory and was commissioned by one of Sherman general's, Logan, to promote his presidential campaign.
Yeah - I mean, that just comes down to knowing the history though. Most people, black or white, don't bother digging into history to understand the why's of how something got to be what it is.
Truthfully - do you think the white people up in arms about heritage and Stone Mountain, would be as quick to defend if they realized that the only reason it's a Confederate memorial is because the Klan made it so, and not because anything Civil War related actually happened there? My guess is no.
I do really find the idea of "updating" Stone Mountain to reflect Atlanta's history (more than just the 4 years of the Civil War) compelling. Especially if there was some homage to MLK, simply for his speech in relation to Stone Mountain, added. If we want to accept our history and heritage, let's start working on accepting all of it.
One polarizing snapshot in time doesn't cut it, really.
I take every one of your points as valid. Definitely. I do not deny one single point.
But you assume that every white person that visits is looking at this as a part of history from only the white angle. That whites do not feel the shame and burden of slavery, whether their family were slave owners or not, just knowing that people were enslaved and treated on this turf as such is a painful, gut wrenching thought to comprehend. When I see memorials to the Civil War, for whatever reason the people that erected them did (and one cannot assume it was only for white supremacist ideals), I do imagine the life that millions suffered and lived under. I also think of my ancestors being born in such a time and that this way of life was the norm and how they reacted and thought of it all. It is sobering all the way around.
The park in their presentation and laser light show surely have made light of this reality... I mean it is a place to go for a getaway and relax and be entertained... how could they accurately depict the harsh reality of such a way of life? But even though they white wash it (no pun intended), the truth still percolates up to anyone with half a brain. How we deal with this legacy is going to differ from individual to individual certainly.... you have black friends that enjoy the park and don't feel the pain you do. I have white friends that visit and don't think about these issues like I do either.
And yes, we are in a worse place than before. I am old enough to have gone to elementary school in the late 60s when we still had separate schools. I can see the black maids in our neighborhood waiting for their rides just like was seen in the movie "The Help." I can remember the train tracks in my hometown of Hogansville being the clear delineation of where blacks lived and whites lived. The doctors clinic in Greenville to this day has two separate entrances. I can remember the N word being used casually by whites (never in my home mind you.... would get a mouth full of soap). My Baptist preacher grandfather was reviled by some because of his support of Civil Rights. I remember the young preacher we had in the early 70s preaching in the black church down the road and two families leaving the church.
Now that church has black members. Now AAs live on the east side of the tracks in Hogansville. The two entrances at the clinic are now for sick patients and well patients. At my high school reunions, the majority of my black classmates have achieved what their parents never dreamed of, college educations, professional careers. White and Black have intermarried and raised families and the world didn't end.
So, all this transition in just my lifetime. Is it finished, have we arrived, is MLKs dream a reality? No, by all means it hasn't happened fully. But it has happened and continues to become a reality in many, many lives.
Perhaps my feeling that feelings are worse is that I am now bombarded by anger from so many angles. I have tried to have conversations on Facebook with some friends on racial issues and I get hit with the "you are not black so you cannot know what it means" Played as if it is a trump card and anything I have to add to the conversation is therefore invalid. And if white people like me, Christian, conservative, but with a true heart for reconciliation are told they have no place at the table, where are we going as a country if the ideal is now to win the conversation at all costs? I have wanted to throw my hands in the air and forget it and not want to engage in the conversation when I get met with this mindset, but I am still drawn in. I still believe we can do better as a people.
Didn't mean to go on so... More than just the topic of this thread for sure. But with all the rhetoric from all sides dating back to.... I guess the Florida incident where the white (hispanic) dude killed the young black guy in the neighborhood.... I have seen a turn in the conversation. I understand the frustration AAs face... not to the point that they themselves understand it, I never will be able to. But I do want to say, hey, here is a white guy that really is on your side and you are pushing me away.
I don't know how much of those last two paragraphs is racial relations souring over the last 10 years or so and how much is just general. Certainly the politics is much more hostile than anytime since the Watergate era. We've had some reasonable discussions in this thread with very divergent viewpoints, but that sort of thing seems to be the exception these days.
I don't know how much of those last two paragraphs is racial relations souring over the last 10 years or so and how much is just general. Certainly the politics is much more hostile than anytime since the Watergate era. We've had some reasonable discussions in this thread with very divergent viewpoints, but that sort of thing seems to be the exception these days.
Only the exception if you allow it to be. I've gotten to the point where if a person can't debate appropriately and respectfully, I call them out (much like I did in this thread) and if it keeps going, I disengage so they are screaming into the void. If more people actively did that, instead of suffering fools - perhaps regardless of what the talking heads are doing, the rest of us can do better.
Yeah - I mean, that just comes down to knowing the history though. Most people, black or white, don't bother digging into history to understand the why's of how something got to be what it is.
Truthfully - do you think the white people up in arms about heritage and Stone Mountain, would be as quick to defend if they realized that the only reason it's a Confederate memorial is because the Klan made it so, and not because anything Civil War related actually happened there? My guess is no.
I do really find the idea of "updating" Stone Mountain to reflect Atlanta's history (more than just the 4 years of the Civil War) compelling. Especially if there was some homage to MLK, simply for his speech in relation to Stone Mountain, added. If we want to accept our history and heritage, let's start working on accepting all of it.
One polarizing snapshot in time doesn't cut it, really.
I'm all for that. Just not a tacky image of MLK beside the generals.
I'm all for that. Just not a tacky image of MLK beside the generals.
Maybe if they added a side bust image of the same size and scale. Definitely not the one in that link where he looks like the second coming of the messiah in his Church robes.
Considering the orientation of the Park - it would take creativity to incorporate into the current bas relief although there is some room to work with - but an engraved quote would work also. Def something form the I have a dream speech. The bit about Stone mountain in there is a bit out of context on it's own.
But maybe something like this to paraphrase:
"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood.
Let Freedom ring from the Stone Mountain of Georgia!"
I take every one of your points as valid. Definitely. I do not deny one single point.
But you assume that every white person that visits is looking at this as a part of history from only the white angle. That whites do not feel the shame and burden of slavery, whether their family were slave owners or not, just knowing that people were enslaved and treated on this turf as such is a painful, gut wrenching thought to comprehend. When I see memorials to the Civil War, for whatever reason the people that erected them did (and one cannot assume it was only for white supremacist ideals), I do imagine the life that millions suffered and lived under. I also think of my ancestors being born in such a time and that this way of life was the norm and how they reacted and thought of it all. It is sobering all the way around.
The park in their presentation and laser light show surely have made light of this reality... I mean it is a place to go for a getaway and relax and be entertained... how could they accurately depict the harsh reality of such a way of life? But even though they white wash it (no pun intended), the truth still percolates up to anyone with half a brain. How we deal with this legacy is going to differ from individual to individual certainly.... you have black friends that enjoy the park and don't feel the pain you do. I have white friends that visit and don't think about these issues like I do either.
And yes, we are in a worse place than before. I am old enough to have gone to elementary school in the late 60s when we still had separate schools. I can see the black maids in our neighborhood waiting for their rides just like was seen in the movie "The Help." I can remember the train tracks in my hometown of Hogansville being the clear delineation of where blacks lived and whites lived. The doctors clinic in Greenville to this day has two separate entrances. I can remember the N word being used casually by whites (never in my home mind you.... would get a mouth full of soap). My Baptist preacher grandfather was reviled by some because of his support of Civil Rights. I remember the young preacher we had in the early 70s preaching in the black church down the road and two families leaving the church.
Now that church has black members. Now AAs live on the east side of the tracks in Hogansville. The two entrances at the clinic are now for sick patients and well patients. At my high school reunions, the majority of my black classmates have achieved what their parents never dreamed of, college educations, professional careers. White and Black have intermarried and raised families and the world didn't end.
So, all this transition in just my lifetime. Is it finished, have we arrived, is MLKs dream a reality? No, by all means it hasn't happened fully. But it has happened and continues to become a reality in many, many lives.
Perhaps my feeling that feelings are worse is that I am now bombarded by anger from so many angles. I have tried to have conversations on Facebook with some friends on racial issues and I get hit with the "you are not black so you cannot know what it means" Played as if it is a trump card and anything I have to add to the conversation is therefore invalid. And if white people like me, Christian, conservative, but with a true heart for reconciliation are told they have no place at the table, where are we going as a country if the ideal is now to win the conversation at all costs? I have wanted to throw my hands in the air and forget it and not want to engage in the conversation when I get met with this mindset, but I am still drawn in. I still believe we can do better as a people.
Didn't mean to go on so... More than just the topic of this thread for sure. But with all the rhetoric from all sides dating back to.... I guess the Florida incident where the white (hispanic) dude killed the young black guy in the neighborhood.... I have seen a turn in the conversation. I understand the frustration AAs face... not to the point that they themselves understand it, I never will be able to. But I do want to say, hey, here is a white guy that really is on your side and you are pushing me away.
I take every one of your points as valid. Definitely. I do not deny one single point.
But you assume that every white person that visits is looking at this as a part of history from only the white angle. That whites do not feel the shame and burden of slavery, whether their family were slave owners or not, just knowing that people were enslaved and treated on this turf as such is a painful, gut wrenching thought to comprehend. When I see memorials to the Civil War, for whatever reason the people that erected them did (and one cannot assume it was only for white supremacist ideals), I do imagine the life that millions suffered and lived under. I also think of my ancestors being born in such a time and that this way of life was the norm and how they reacted and thought of it all. It is sobering all the way around.
The park in their presentation and laser light show surely have made light of this reality... I mean it is a place to go for a getaway and relax and be entertained... how could they accurately depict the harsh reality of such a way of life? But even though they white wash it (no pun intended), the truth still percolates up to anyone with half a brain. How we deal with this legacy is going to differ from individual to individual certainly.... you have black friends that enjoy the park and don't feel the pain you do. I have white friends that visit and don't think about these issues like I do either.
And yes, we are in a worse place than before. I am old enough to have gone to elementary school in the late 60s when we still had separate schools. I can see the black maids in our neighborhood waiting for their rides just like was seen in the movie "The Help." I can remember the train tracks in my hometown of Hogansville being the clear delineation of where blacks lived and whites lived. The doctors clinic in Greenville to this day has two separate entrances. I can remember the N word being used casually by whites (never in my home mind you.... would get a mouth full of soap). My Baptist preacher grandfather was reviled by some because of his support of Civil Rights. I remember the young preacher we had in the early 70s preaching in the black church down the road and two families leaving the church.
Now that church has black members. Now AAs live on the east side of the tracks in Hogansville. The two entrances at the clinic are now for sick patients and well patients. At my high school reunions, the majority of my black classmates have achieved what their parents never dreamed of, college educations, professional careers. White and Black have intermarried and raised families and the world didn't end.
So, all this transition in just my lifetime. Is it finished, have we arrived, is MLKs dream a reality? No, by all means it hasn't happened fully. But it has happened and continues to become a reality in many, many lives.
Perhaps my feeling that feelings are worse is that I am now bombarded by anger from so many angles. I have tried to have conversations on Facebook with some friends on racial issues and I get hit with the "you are not black so you cannot know what it means" Played as if it is a trump card and anything I have to add to the conversation is therefore invalid. And if white people like me, Christian, conservative, but with a true heart for reconciliation are told they have no place at the table, where are we going as a country if the ideal is now to win the conversation at all costs? I have wanted to throw my hands in the air and forget it and not want to engage in the conversation when I get met with this mindset, but I am still drawn in. I still believe we can do better as a people.
Didn't mean to go on so... More than just the topic of this thread for sure. But with all the rhetoric from all sides dating back to.... I guess the Florida incident where the white (hispanic) dude killed the young black guy in the neighborhood.... I have seen a turn in the conversation. I understand the frustration AAs face... not to the point that they themselves understand it, I never will be able to. But I do want to say, hey, here is a white guy that really is on your side and you are pushing me away.
I would never push anyone away from meeting with me as equals in the discussion on race/skin color tribalism and how to solve it.
What gets me is when people come at me with this superficial mainstream media view of race where the game is "if you don't talk about racism, ergo it don't exist/colorblind" fakery.
And try to used that thought process to downplay the whole issue...and then try to intimidate people who speak on their experiences with white supremacy into silence...the people who continue to suffer economically, politically and socially for those experiences.
That's when I call "hacks".
And I don't hold back.
Keep it real, is all I am saying.
Leave all pretense and contrived hackery at the door when it comes to discussing racism and skin color tribalism.
I would never push anyone away from meeting with me as equals in the discussion on race/skin color tribalism and how to solve it.
What gets me is when people come at me with this superficial mainstream media view of race where the game is "if you don't talk about racism, ergo it don't exist/colorblind" fakery.
And try to used that thought process to downplay the whole issue...and then try to intimidate people who speak on their experiences with white supremacy into silence...the people who continue to suffer economically, politically and socially for those experiences.
That's when I call "hacks".
And I don't hold back.
Keep it real, is all I am saying.
Leave all pretense and contrived hackery at the door when it comes to discussing racism and skin color tribalism.
Amen.
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