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Frankly - there is plenty of room on Stone Mountain to add to the Bas Relief that already exists or create a new one on another face of it. If we are going to make it a historical park, and given the context - why not try to balance out it's sketchy history and acknowledge both sides?
The State owns it, yeah? So it should fundamentally be doable, provided the financing is lined up correctly.
If people are against that, then perhaps the white supremacist undercurrent is stronger than we are willing to give voice to.
The south is the most patriotic part of the country. And its not the people who hate the confederate flag who are the ones most likely to be flying the American flag.
As for Roof, how many people murder 9 people in a church? Hardly a representative sample.
And very true... (about Roof). I wouldn't go as far as to jump to a generalized statement as to say "the South is the most patriotic, blah blah blah" OR to assume that "the people who hate the confederate flag" [are not the ones most likely to be flying the American flag]. That's an ill informed assumption.
By the way, cute you think you're speaking in code as if we all don't know exactly what you're saying but too scared to say because of politically incorrect persecution... But hey, we'll let u off the hook here and go with it... We're all good Americans here, right?
But for a moment, let's put all that separatist talk aside and think about this flag and the "WHY KEEP IT?" question... Forget about why people hate it, let's take an objective look at and discuss the argument to keep it.
So you say it represents "Southern heritage..." Interesting... Okay.
"Heritage..." aka inheritance. To be inherited. Alloted possession of an individual. Okay. So the Stars & Bars & what it represents is a proud possession of "The South..." Does that extend to all of the South? Does Caleb, born a black man in South Carolina also own an equal claim of that inherited possession known from it's birth as "The White Man's Cross?" Does Joaquin, born & raised in Tampa, Florida also own that flag in the same? Honestly? Maybe so.
Or is it simply inherited possession of descendents of white southerners? Is that it? If so, then fine... Then it should still extend to Caleb, who's great great great grandfather was a confederate soldier who's father owned 12 slaves.
Better yet. How about Albert. Albert is a white American, age 25, and he has just learned that is descendants are German and were firm believers in the Nazi movement during the mid 1900s. There should be no problem with him brandishing his inherited Nazi flag from his home & claiming to be more American than those that hate his flag & what it represents, right? Because it's all about inherited possession...
How about Michael. His grandfather was a Black Panther. Have any problem with him driving down the street with a large Black Panther flag flying off the back of his truck? Maybe you don't, but I can guarantee you Oakland PD does. But it's his "Proud heritage..."
So is a Hezbollah flag to a Lebanese man who's family comes from a Hezbollah background...
Is it really heritage? Or blind acceptance of ancestors' decisions because we're not strong enough to stand up (even against our relatives) and make our own decisions and say that what they did was wrong.
As human beings, we can make our own decisions and don't have to own the tragic stupidity of our ancestors. And saying that our ancestors were wrong or even stupid for the poor decisions they made doesn't make you less of a man or more of a traitor. It makes you more of a man to stand up against what is wrong regardless of who they were...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rselah25
Its not Obama's fault anymore. Its Zuckerburg's fault. Blame facebook for all of this exploitation of idiocy.
LOL!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2
FYI bryantm the word N****r was commonly used in the Lily White community where I grew up way before the Civil Rights movement in the 1960's. A N****R was a lazy, good for nothing, thief, drunk etc no matter what the Color of his skin.
Most of the people I know now that fit the 1950's definition of N****R now call them selves Liberals.
: smack:
MOVE... Please stop embarrassing Georgia. Just move..........
No wait, let's discuss this retarded Liberals/Conservative thing for a moment. I am SO SICK of hearing "Liberal this" "Conservative that"
The term Christian Conservative is an oxymoron.
Conservative, meaning to protect. To conserve. To preserve. Preserve what? My way of life. My possessions. My heritage. My my my... Mine... Self preservation. Self... Selfish. Selfishness... Conservatism is to place ones self above thy neighbor in the name of remaining unchanged (because I believe this is a strong thing...).
Christian, meaning to be Christ-like. To be similar to Jesus Christ. To follow in the ways of and teachings of Jesus. Jesus... Who was unselfish to a fault. Jesus who believed in the things that Conservatives preach against. Who believed in placing thy neighbor's needs over his own desires or even needs. Ready to die for someone else... Compassionate. The opposite of Conservative.
Anyone who actually reads & follows in the teachings of Jesus really believe that if Jesus was in the flesh alive today, he'd be a Conservative? I doubt it. Doesn't mean he'd be a Liberal either... Or a Socialist...
I hate when people act like there are only 2 sides also. "Oh, he's talking about Conservatives. He must be a lilly loving Liberal..."
What's funny is there are so many people that throw around this "conservative" term so proudly as if they think it makes them sound a little more politically informed. It doesn't make you sound more intelligent or politically informed to stand firm and throw around these Conservative vs Liberal arguments all the time...
You also can't understand now how close the war was to these people. 1 out of 4 military age white southern males were casualties in the war. Estimates are that more than 250,000 died. The south's population was 9.0 million with 5.5 million white, so that's nearly 10% of all males dying (and that doesn't count any who died fighting for the Union). My wife's grandmother who died in the 1990s was married to a man who was born in the 1870s (and lived until the 1970s), only a dozen years after the end of the war, so he lived through the South's "depression era." These people had parents and grandparents who lived that war. Sherman was a 4 letter word to her. She grew up with people who suffered because of Sherman's March to the Sea.
To say they built monuments honoring their parents and grandparents and those who led them in battle was all about slavery and oppressing Blacks is really simplistic. Its not a whole lot different than saying the Vietnam Memorial honors imperialism because the US denied the Vietnamese the choice of choosing their government. But maybe you can understand Vietnam because you are closer to it. The people who built these Confederate Memorials across the South were very close to the Civil War.
Anecdotal, but I submit this bit of my own family history to show that those of us with family lineages in the south are not that far removed from this war.
My great great grandfather died at Bull Run (I think that is the right battle... my brother knows the history better than I). He left behind an only child, my great grandmother as an infant. That Great grandmother was raised an only child with no father, she married my great grandfather who died shortly after 3 boys were born. My grandfather became the "man of the house" at a very young age, my great grandmother lived with my grandparents as they reared my mother and uncle. She was a bitter woman from all of the loss in her life. This affected family dynamics that I believe have imprinted themselves unto this day. When I went through my own divorce, I went through a lot of soul searching and family study to understand why I react to certain situations the way I do. I am not placing blame on any one thing or person or history, but talking to my uncle and understanding the home dynamics he and my mother grew up under, there is no doubt that part of our family "dysfunction" can be attributed to "Granny" and much of "Granny's" dysfunction can easily be traced to her childhood of which the Civil War was the biggest imprint.
My story is probably replicated many times over. There was a great loss of life during the war and the great poverty and economic loss put on southerners after the war during Reconstruction has left an indelible mark on the populace. No, we whites were not slaves, we do not have that baggage passing on through the generations nor the scourge of Jim Crow laws and the disadvantages associated by segregation. But all southerners were affected by this war. Debating the place of slavery within that war is not going to change any of the pain and suffering that all endured. To come 150 years down the pike and rewrite it all or remove vestiges of it will not erase the pain or loss.
To me, confederate memorials are not a source of shame. Neither are they celebratory idols to a better time and place or a symbol of the betterment of one race. They are remnants of a history not far removed from us today to study and understand why we as a people, southern people in particular, are why we are who we are.
That a great modern city like Atlanta has arisen out of these ashes and that its citizens, both black and white can live and work together to make the great city we have is something to continue to not only celebrate, but in fact be awestruck with amazement that we have what we have considering such a history.
We should never forget it. But we don't have to be defined by it.
Anecdotal, but I submit this bit of my own family history to show that those of us with family lineages in the south are not that far removed from this war.
My great great grandfather died at Bull Run (I think that is the right battle... my brother knows the history better than I). He left behind an only child, my great grandmother as an infant. That Great grandmother was raised an only child with no father, she married my great grandfather who died shortly after 3 boys were born. My grandfather became the "man of the house" at a very young age, my great grandmother lived with my grandparents as they reared my mother and uncle. She was a bitter woman from all of the loss in her life. This affected family dynamics that I believe have imprinted themselves unto this day. When I went through my own divorce, I went through a lot of soul searching and family study to understand why I react to certain situations the way I do. I am not placing blame on any one thing or person or history, but talking to my uncle and understanding the home dynamics he and my mother grew up under, there is no doubt that part of our family "dysfunction" can be attributed to "Granny" and much of "Granny's" dysfunction can easily be traced to her childhood of which the Civil War was the biggest imprint.
My story is probably replicated many times over. There was a great loss of life during the war and the great poverty and economic loss put on southerners after the war during Reconstruction has left an indelible mark on the populace. No, we whites were not slaves, we do not have that baggage passing on through the generations nor the scourge of Jim Crow laws and the disadvantages associated by segregation. But all southerners were affected by this war. Debating the place of slavery within that war is not going to change any of the pain and suffering that all endured. To come 150 years down the pike and rewrite it all or remove vestiges of it will not erase the pain or loss.
To me, confederate memorials are not a source of shame. Neither are they celebratory idols to a better time and place or a symbol of the betterment of one race. They are remnants of a history not far removed from us today to study and understand why we as a people, southern people in particular, are why we are who we are.
That a great modern city like Atlanta has arisen out of these ashes and that its citizens, both black and white can live and work together to make the great city we have is something to continue to not only celebrate, but in fact be awestruck with amazement that we have what we have considering such a history.
We should never forget it. But we don't have to be defined by it.
I blame Lincoln for not hanging the C.S.A. leadership and the flag generals of the C.S.A. at the gallows for their treason against the U.S.A.
"Sins of the father" I suppose...
Uh, Lincoln was dead at the time.
But yes, he would never have done that. He was far wiser than the people who actually oversaw Reconstruction.
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We're all good Americans here, right? 
