Coronavirus (San Francisco, London: home, schools, live in)

[sav858]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

raise your hand if you were called a conspiracy theorist the last 3 years for saying natural immunity is better than vaccinations?



https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal....ness-rcna71027

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...465-5/fulltext

of course this isnt anything new. people even remotely familiar with healthcare know natural immunity is always better than vaxxing but for some reason this was changed with covid. I mean we know why. How else would you get vaccine mandates through if a large portion of those required to get it already had a prior covid infection? They wouldn't be as open to it if the news pumped this info out in 2021

I think all the vaccination mandate zealots owe us an apology. They were so rabid and cultish about it. Cops, firefighters, govt workers, etc.. lost their jobs over that crap. Europe accepted natural immunity the entire time, why didn't we?. It seems like everything they supported has been proven wrong; masks, vax mandates, school closings, etc...

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by sav858

I think all the vaccination mandate zealots owe us an apology. They were so rabid and cultish about it. Cops, firefighters, govt workers, etc.. Europe accepted natural immunity the entire time, why didn't we? lost their jobs over that crap. It seems like everything they supported has been proven wrong; masks, vax mandates, school closing, etc...

yep this is why I don't listen to anything those people have to say anymore. just scroll right past their comments, don't click their articles, don't watch them on tv, smile and nod when they discuss it/quickly change subjects, etc. Absolutely pointless to put any energy into it anymore since they've been wrong about pretty much everything since the start but still won't accept it. I can't trust the judgement of people like that.

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

...of course this isnt anything new. people even remotely familiar with healthcare know natural immunity is always better than vaxxing but for some reason this was changed with covid.

But Dab, you're probably too young to have had measles, mumps and chickenpox like some of us did before the MMR vaccine was available. While most children got through it by staying home from school--for two and three weeks for each illness--there are kids who became deaf from measles. And I had no idea that the varicella-zoster virus (chickenpox) could be fatal to some, but it is.

As far as SARS-CoV-2 goes, it wasn't known when the vaccines became available in 2021 that they did not prevent transmission, or that the virus could mutate so rapidly.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

But Dab, you're probably too young to have had measles, mumps and chickenpox like some of us did before the MMR vaccine was available. While most children got through it by staying home from school--for two and three weeks for each illness--there are kids who became deaf from measles. And I had no idea that the varicella-zoster virus (chickenpox) could be fatal to some, but it is.

As far as SARS-CoV-2 goes, it wasn't known when the vaccines became available in 2021 that they did not prevent transmission, or that the virus could mutate so rapidly.

Yeah because they never actually tested to see if it did. But they, including our own govt and the media, lead us to believe that it did initially. Wasn't that the whole premise behind the vax mandates?

[goodheathen]

Originally Posted by sav858

Yeah because they never actually tested to see if it did. But they, including our own govt and the media, lead us to believe that it did initially. Wasn't that the whole premise behind the vax mandates?

NO. It was also about preventing mass serious illness. Saving people from themselves in some cases. That's why vaccination remains a good idea.

[MechAndy]

“They owe us an apology “
An apology does not even come close to making things square for me and many others.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by goodheathen

NO. It was also about preventing mass serious illness. Saving people from themselves in some cases. That's why vaccination remains a good idea.

NO. We were actually told it was to reach herd immunity and COVID would go away. How on earth were we supposed to reach herd immunity if we never knew whether or not it prevented infection? Once they realized it didn't then the narrative switched to "it's to prevent serious illness" and all the sheep followed along.

Vaccine Mandates Are Lawful, Effective and Based on Rock-Solid Science

People cite bodily integrity, personal liberty and freedom as the most common justifications for refusing vaccines. But these arguments don’t hold water. It’s true that everyone has the right to refuse a medical intervention for their own good. But vaccines not only protect the person vaccinated but also that person’s family, neighbors, and classmates or co-workers. No one has the right to go into a crowded classroom or workplace unmasked and unvaccinated.

[goodheathen]

Cherry-picking articles, especially third-party sources, will never win an argument. Plenty of key parties, including vaccine makers, early on were emphasizing prevention of serious illness and death and the government concern with overwhelmed hospitals was always present. Whether that was publicly explained or not as a reason for the mandate is irrelevant.

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by sav858

We were actually told it was to reach herd immunity and COVID would go away.

It seems that the concept of herd immunity in regard to SARS-CoV-2 was misunderstood.

https://www.statnews.com/2022/03/25/...mmunity-wrong/

https://www.grid.news/story/global/2...xpect-in-2023/

[sav858]

Originally Posted by goodheathen

Cherry-picking articles, especially third-party sources, will never win an argument. Plenty of key parties, including vaccine makers, early on were emphasizing prevention of serious illness and death and the government concern with overwhelmed hospitals was always present. Whether that was publicly explained or not as a reason for the mandate is irrelevant.

It's just an example. Just throwing stuff out there with no examples or evidence will definitely never win any sort of argument either.

Nowhere in this press release from Pfizer does it say anything about preventing serious illness or death, but plenty about "preventing COVID"

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Vaccine Candidate Against COVID-19 Achieved Success in First Interim Analysis from Phase 3 Study


In Defense of Vaccine Mandates: An Argument from Consent Rights

As such, Brennan argues that the unvaccinated contributes to a collective harm that the government is justified in preventing via vaccine mandate.

Our argument comes closest to Brennan’s in that we also do not focus on benefits of the vaccine mandate outweighing any harms or rights to the otherwise unvaccinated. Where it differs, however, is that our focus is not on a contribution to a collective harm that a government may protect against, but rather on a conflict of rights between the would-be unvaccinated and individuals with an interest in people with whom they interact being vaccinated. Indeed, our central claim is that this is a conflict of the very same right, i.e. one’s purported right to remain unvaccinated is undergirded by the same deontological logic of consent rights that we contend motivate the right of a potential bystander to not be unnecessarily exposed to COVID-19

Ethical Issues in Mandating COVID-19 Vaccination for Health Care Personnel

Health care personnel and institutions alike have a duty to protect patients and others from known and anticipated harms of infection. The duty to protect rests on foundational ethical values: putting patients and others first and promoting their well-being (beneficence) and avoiding harm to others (non-maleficence).7 Members of society, here the health care institution community, should contribute their fair share to the public good in times of crisis, except in cases of justified medical or religious exemption (a version of the principle of fairness).8 Whereas HCP are committed to putting patients first, they also have the fundamental right of autonomy to make voluntary informed decisions about their own health, including refusal of unwanted medical interventions.

Moderator cut: personal