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Old 04-23-2018, 05:34 PM
 
318 posts, read 178,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Essequamvideri View Post
I'm not sure a comprehensive look validates anything except the fact that communities with resources perform better on standardized tests.
I don't think anyone doubts this is true, however the assumed cause/effect might very well be backwards.

The common assumption is that "communities with resources" -> "better on standardized tests" however time after time throwing more resources at the problem doesn't fix it.

Perhaps we should consider that "better on standardized tests" -> "communities with resources." That successful/intelligent adults breed similar kids that perpetuate that success cycle.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:55 PM
 
1,985 posts, read 1,395,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getatag View Post
They are "swimming" in local, state, and federal cash compared to non-low performing schools in the same district. Most system limit the amounts that can be "contributed" by outside sources. I've seen offers of thousands of dollars from municipalities to fund "their" neighborhood schools turned down by the school system unless it was designated as a contribution to ALL schools. (the good old equity rule)
Are you saying a few thousand here and there makes up for local, state, and federal spending on lower performing schools? 25K for scoreboards wouldn't make a dent in the difference in L, S and F funding and certainly doesn't lend 2 cents toward making an academic difference.
Kind of proves my point that parents wouldn't want a portion of their donation to help another school with greater needs. The issue I'm describing is a disregard and inability to see how connected we all are in the dilemma of struggling high poverty schools. We will all pay the price for it. I think parents can donate money to buy whatever they want. The football scoreboard example is an indication of just how different the challenges are in two communities within the same district. I didn't start this thread to debate solutions or go down a rabbit hole, but I'd love for you to show your work here. Last time I checked, I think Title 1 funding worked out to about 500-600 dollars per student per year.

How much would you say a guaranteed place to sleep is worth per year? How about a clean set of clothes? Regular meals? How about a set of peers with high expectations and stability at home? Adults that care about your progress and hold you accountable? How about parents that aren't working third shift hours that can shuttle you around town for enrichment? Do you think 500-600 bucks can put a dent in any of those challenges?

How about schools that are struggling that don't qualify for Title 1 (80% FRL last time I checked). I taught at a school that didn't qualify for Title 1 funding since it was below the 80% FRL ratio, but you can bet that we could have put an extra teacher and support staff position to good use. I taught at the same school when we did qualify for Title 1, and the difference that a higher per pupil funding and additional support staff was a drop in the bucket against the conditions/challenges. Schools that get Title 1 funding aren't enjoying tiny classes and extra money to spend on counselors. Our classes are crowded too. And I'd argue that my 22 kids coming from poverty are tougher to handle than 35 from the other side of the tracks. And don't get me wrong, overcrowding and overbearing helicopter parents create different issues and pressures, but it's pretty amazing to compare campus/culture of a student population that is coming from families where dinner is a guarantee, as well as a quiet place to do homework at night, let alone a clean bed and a parent that cares about where you are. Putting a price on the stability that many take for granted is a difficult task. If you think the per pupil spending allotment is out of sync with the need, I would strongly encourage you to spend some time in Title 1 schools and get to know the challenges those kids face.

I can understand someone who is skeptical of "throwing money at the problem". I agree in a way, that "throwing money" is not the key factor. I'd much rather we "throw time" or "throw attention". My gripe is with the lack of attention and care/concern - not with funding. No matter how nice of a building is built, it's not going to do much for the kids that are funneling in, or less experienced teachers and administration. It's amazing how much difference a caring adult can make in the equation - a reason I really like that family stability is included in the opportunity task force work. However, blaming the failures entirely on family dynamics is overly simplistic and dismissive of some of the greater contributing factors/challenges. It's amazing what we take for granted.

When becoming aware of the problem, to respond with, "it's not my problem" or "they already get more than their fair share" just shows a lack of awareness. I generally believe that Charlotte is full of compassionate, caring people who, if made aware of both their role in support and the obstacles facing our county's poorest kids, would be more understanding of the issue and their role in a solution - ironically an issue that is driven by living in such a segregated town.

This thread was started to share the wonderful summary of the newsweek article - not to argue over solutions. The apathy and disregard just proves my point.

Last edited by Essequamvideri; 04-23-2018 at 07:03 PM..
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:56 PM
 
1,985 posts, read 1,395,957 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eristic1 View Post
I don't think anyone doubts this is true, however the assumed cause/effect might very well be backwards.

The common assumption is that "communities with resources" -> "better on standardized tests" however time after time throwing more resources at the problem doesn't fix it.

Perhaps we should consider that "better on standardized tests" -> "communities with resources." That successful/intelligent adults breed similar kids that perpetuate that success cycle.

Tell me more. I don't understand your point. Do you think students in poor areas of Charlotte can't learn? I want to believe you don't believe that.
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Chapelboro
10,694 posts, read 11,322,485 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essequamvideri View Post
Kind of proves my point that parents wouldn't want a portion of their donation to help another school with greater needs. The issue I'm describing is a disregard and inability to see how connected we all are in the dilemma of struggling high poverty schools. We will all pay the price for it. I think parents can donate money to buy whatever they want. The football scoreboard example is an indication of just how different the challenges are in two communities within the same district. I didn't start this thread to debate solutions or go down a rabbit hole, but I'd love for you to show your work here. Last time I checked, I think Title 1 funding worked out to about 500-600 dollars per student per year.

How much would you say a guaranteed place to sleep is worth per year? How about a clean set of clothes? Regular meals? How about a set of peers with high expectations and stability at home? Adults that care about your progress and hold you accountable? How about parents that aren't working third shift hours that can shuttle you around town for enrichment? Do you think 500-600 bucks can put a dent in any of those challenges?

How about schools that are struggling that don't qualify for Title 1 (80% FRL last time I checked). I taught at a school that didn't qualify for Title 1 funding since it was below the 80% FRL ratio, but you can bet that we could have put an extra teacher and support staff position to good use. I taught at the same school when we did qualify for Title 1, and the difference that a higher per pupil funding and additional support staff was a drop in the bucket against the conditions/challenges. Schools that get Title 1 funding aren't enjoying tiny classes and extra money to spend on counselors. Our classes are crowded too. And I'd argue that my 22 kids coming from poverty are tougher to handle than 35 from the other side of the tracks. And don't get me wrong, overcrowding and overbearing helicopter parents create different issues and pressures, but it's pretty amazing to compare campus/culture of a student population that is coming from families where dinner is a guarantee, as well as a quiet place to do homework at night, let alone a clean bed and a parent that cares about where you are. Putting a price on the stability that many take for granted is a difficult task. If you think the per pupil spending allotment is out of sync with the need, I would strongly encourage you to spend some time in Title 1 schools and get to know the challenges those kids face.

I can understand someone who is skeptical of "throwing money at the problem". I agree in a way, that "throwing money" is not the key factor. I'd much rather we "throw time" or "throw attention". My gripe is with the lack of attention and care/concern - not with funding. No matter how nice of a building is built, it's not going to do much for the kids that are funneling in, or less experienced teachers and administration. It's amazing how much difference a caring adult can make in the equation - a reason I really like that family stability is included in the opportunity task force work. However, blaming the failures entirely on family dynamics is overly simplistic and dismissive of some of the greater contributing factors/challenges. It's amazing what we take for granted.

When becoming aware of the problem, to respond with, "it's not my problem" or "they already get more than their fair share" just shows a lack of awareness. I generally believe that Charlotte is full of compassionate, caring people who, if made aware of both their role in support and the obstacles facing our county's poorest kids, would be more understanding of the issue and their role in a solution - ironically an issue that is driven by living in such a segregated town.

This thread was started to share the wonderful summary of the newsweek article - not to argue over solutions. The apathy and disregard just proves my point.
Have to spread the rep points around. Well said!
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:55 PM
 
2,202 posts, read 2,384,156 times
Reputation: 3151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essequamvideri View Post
Kind of proves my point that parents wouldn't want a portion of their donation to help another school with greater needs. The issue I'm describing is a disregard and inability to see how connected we all are in the dilemma of struggling high poverty schools. We will all pay the price for it. I think parents can donate money to buy whatever they want. The football scoreboard example is an indication of just how different the challenges are in two communities within the same district. I didn't start this thread to debate solutions or go down a rabbit hole, but I'd love for you to show your work here. Last time I checked, I think Title 1 funding worked out to about 500-600 dollars per student per year.

How much would you say a guaranteed place to sleep is worth per year? How about a clean set of clothes? Regular meals? How about a set of peers with high expectations and stability at home? Adults that care about your progress and hold you accountable? How about parents that aren't working third shift hours that can shuttle you around town for enrichment? Do you think 500-600 bucks can put a dent in any of those challenges?

How about schools that are struggling that don't qualify for Title 1 (80% FRL last time I checked). I taught at a school that didn't qualify for Title 1 funding since it was below the 80% FRL ratio, but you can bet that we could have put an extra teacher and support staff position to good use. I taught at the same school when we did qualify for Title 1, and the difference that a higher per pupil funding and additional support staff was a drop in the bucket against the conditions/challenges. Schools that get Title 1 funding aren't enjoying tiny classes and extra money to spend on counselors. Our classes are crowded too. And I'd argue that my 22 kids coming from poverty are tougher to handle than 35 from the other side of the tracks. And don't get me wrong, overcrowding and overbearing helicopter parents create different issues and pressures, but it's pretty amazing to compare campus/culture of a student population that is coming from families where dinner is a guarantee, as well as a quiet place to do homework at night, let alone a clean bed and a parent that cares about where you are. Putting a price on the stability that many take for granted is a difficult task. If you think the per pupil spending allotment is out of sync with the need, I would strongly encourage you to spend some time in Title 1 schools and get to know the challenges those kids face.

I can understand someone who is skeptical of "throwing money at the problem". I agree in a way, that "throwing money" is not the key factor. I'd much rather we "throw time" or "throw attention". My gripe is with the lack of attention and care/concern - not with funding. No matter how nice of a building is built, it's not going to do much for the kids that are funneling in, or less experienced teachers and administration. It's amazing how much difference a caring adult can make in the equation - a reason I really like that family stability is included in the opportunity task force work. However, blaming the failures entirely on family dynamics is overly simplistic and dismissive of some of the greater contributing factors/challenges. It's amazing what we take for granted.

When becoming aware of the problem, to respond with, "it's not my problem" or "they already get more than their fair share" just shows a lack of awareness. I generally believe that Charlotte is full of compassionate, caring people who, if made aware of both their role in support and the obstacles facing our county's poorest kids, would be more understanding of the issue and their role in a solution - ironically an issue that is driven by living in such a segregated town.

This thread was started to share the wonderful summary of the newsweek article - not to argue over solutions. The apathy and disregard just proves my point.

Wow, you made a wrong turn back at the fork!

I agree with some of what you profess to understand, but I really take exception to your comment in bold.

I could argue I've done more for Title I schools than you, but are we really getting into a voiding competition?
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Chapelboro
10,694 posts, read 11,322,485 times
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FTR, I think busing for economic background benefits both the kids at the lower performing school, many of whom are impoverished, and also benefits affluent kids, helping them to become aware of their privilege and to become more caring people.

My husband remembers his teacher telling him that if he had anything on his lunch tray that he didn't want to give it to another little boy instead of throwing it away because he didn't get enough to eat at home. He did give his extra food to that boy and he devoured it. That was a message that stuck with my husband. He's told that story to our kids several times.

I'll throw this out for discussion too: CMS Segregation Highest In State, Study Says | WFAE
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:24 PM
 
318 posts, read 178,551 times
Reputation: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essequamvideri View Post
Tell me more. I don't understand your point. Do you think students in poor areas of Charlotte can't learn? I want to believe you don't believe that.
Poor areas are rarely made up exceptionally bright people (valedictorians, PhD's, Engineers, etc) because they tend to choose better areas to live in and have the money to do so. Their kids tend to be bright and are sent to the "good" schools in these better areas.

By extension, poor areas are generally made up of a duller cross-section of people. Dull people tend to have dull children. Certainly this isn't an absolute, but the trend is very clear.
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:32 PM
 
318 posts, read 178,551 times
Reputation: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppydog View Post
FTR, I think busing for economic background benefits both the kids at the lower performing school, many of whom are impoverished, and also benefits affluent kids, helping them to become aware of their privilege and to become more caring people.

My husband remembers his teacher telling him that if he had anything on his lunch tray that he didn't want to give it to another little boy instead of throwing it away because he didn't get enough to eat at home. He did give his extra food to that boy and he devoured it. That was a message that stuck with my husband. He's told that story to our kids several times.

I'll throw this out for discussion too: CMS Segregation Highest In State, Study Says | WFAE
Or you could just make the choice for your family to send them to a low-performing school. There's no reason to force your choice on others.

There are people who have spent a premium on their home to be in a "good" school district so they don't have to deal with the disruptive behavior so common in lower performing schools. Let those people make the choice for their kids and you can make the choice for yours.
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:08 PM
 
5,896 posts, read 7,750,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eristic1 View Post
Good points, and busing solves neither of these inequalities.

Like many public policies, it's not about solving anything but about looking like you're trying to solve things.

If you take a high performing school with engaged parents and you bus half of them across town, and bus half the kids from across town back in you have a different school. Sure the building is the same but the kids, the parents, the culture etc is different.

However you've pissed off the half sent across town who now have to wake up at 5am to catch the bus, but you've also pissed off the half that stayed who now have to deal with kids from the other side of town with apathetic or non-existent parents.

This may lessen inequality, but it's akin to cutting off everyone's legs so double leg amputees feel equal.
Never say never I guess, but there is about a 0% of bussing like it was done before happening again in CMS. In most cases redistricting is done to relieve overcrowding, which is often the result of higher income people continuing to fill up the higher-performing schools. So what tends to happen is (and not just in CMS, in districts like Union County as well), is the boundaries of higher-performing schools get smaller and the boundaries for lower-performing schools get a little bigger. No one's getting sent from Ardrey Kell to West Charlotte. But you'd think the world is ending with the way parents react to their kids getting moved from a "10" to a "6."
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Old 04-24-2018, 07:06 AM
 
1,985 posts, read 1,395,957 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by getatag View Post
Wow, you made a wrong turn back at the fork!

I agree with some of what you profess to understand, but I really take exception to your comment in bold.

I could argue I've done more for Title I schools than you, but are we really getting into a voiding competition?


I'm not interested in personal quibbles, though I'd love to hear your experience and perspective. It's a message board. I'm hopeful you're already aware that one person's experience never necessarily "trumps" another entirely, but sheds light on their perspective. It's not personal or a competition. I don't know what a voiding competition is. Feel free to share what work you've done for Title 1 schools and why that has colored your opinion on the current state of their progress.

Do you think the per pupil spending allotment is underweight for Title 1 schools, providing Title 1 schools with too many dollars, or in line with what it should be? Is the "good ole equity rule" a good thing, or a bad thing?

Community members that complain about not being able to flood their neighborhood schools with private donations, with no knowledge of the conditions and circumstances of their neighbors a few miles away facing much greater need is indicative of the disconnect, and a sign of the problem. If aware of the massive gap in resources, and still complaining about not being able to boost funding, it's worse than ignorance...more like greed/disregard. Don't even tell me that 600 bucks a year makes a dent in what our poorest kids are facing. If you think that, you need to spend more time with the kids attending Title1 schools.

We are all in this together and share a stake in the benefit and consequences of successful or failing schools. Getting everyone to agree with that point, is simple and unfortunately more difficult than in years' past.

I think jumping to talking about solutions is problematic. Several posters don't have a good grasp on what the actual issues and options are and are arguing about solutions that aren't even on the table. They are red herrings. Forced bussing is not returning to Charlotte. No one is proposing it. Though I did benefit from it and am thankful for the experience, I wouldn't support it. I'd agree that it was a better outcome than what we see currently, but the term is more of phrase stirred up by fear mongering citizens opposed to confronting the real problems than anything else.



School Segregation in America is as Bad Today as it Was in the 1960s
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