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That same empty rhetoric has been repeated since the 60's.
If you want to solve "income equality", find a job.
People have more opportunities now than at any time in history, and half of them just want to sit around and whine about how bad they have it.
First off, I did not approach this from a partisan perspective. Democrats in Chicago have messed up the city. But countless politicians of all stripes from coast to coast have treated us like garbage, played us for chumps, and not given an f about us for decades.
I personally disagree with your assertion that getting a job solves income inequality. If you are born into a place/family with the resources, it is worlds easier to advance in your career, and achieve financial stability. Income inequality results from generations of poverty. These days, the idea of social mobility is pretty much dead. People used to call the US the land of opportunity, where you could pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make a better living than your ancestors. These days, that notion is fading. People don't believe you can achieve a higher standard of living than your parents anymore.
As a young person who graduated college a several years ago, I was appalled at how many internships and starter jobs required so much prior experience, or had no pay(in regards to internships). Now, I understand the need to find a quality employee, but in some cases, it is absurd that a job meant for a fresh out of college undergrad requires years of experience. Also, I do understand that internships are just jumping off points to start your career and gain valuable knowledge, but someone still needs to pay the bills. I was lucky enough to be born into a relatively upper middle class family who could supplement me while I did an internship at an investment firm in downtown Chicago. Most people, however, do not have that luxury. One of my best friends came to DePaul on scholarship and MAP grants but did not have the means to do an unpaid internship. Their experience there was great, and in the end they were offered a position there. On the other hand, she had to work nights as a bartender to pay the bills as well, and thats not including the compounding interest on that massive DePaul debt.
I'm not sure if I agree with your assertion that there are more opportunities these days. Now, if you are talking internationally, perhaps. This is anecdotal but about a quarter of my graduating class has moved to Europe, Australia, Canada, or East Asia not just to pursue good career opportunities, but also to escape a perceived decline in the quality of life in the US. This includes healthcare, social order, violence, and yes, income inequality.
Going back to opportunity, there is much less opportunity for advancement in low wage jobs. I'm not saying that a minimum wage job is great, but it is unlikely or difficult for you to get a good raise, benefits, or a promotion.
Even in jobs that require a college degree, the tuition rate has skyrocketed 1400% since 1978. I graduated after 4 years with $150,000 in college debt. If I had attended my dream school, McGill, in Montreal, QC, that number would have been closer to 40-50,000. Of course, no qualms about my alma mater either, DePaul University(Go Blue Demons).
So here's an example of why I think opportunity in the US has decreased. Someone who got an MBA circa 1990 may have had a total tuition cost of 8,000. Their starting salary is $100,000. That represents a 25X return on investment. Fast forward to the present. Tuition is hovering at around $100,000, and salary is $140,000. That represents a 1.4x return on investment. In many cases, some of these graduates these days are going to be paying off their student loans until they reach the grave.
Even in professional blue collar work, there are much less skilled manufacturing jobs due to automation, and offshoring. In the year 2000, approximately 20% of jobs were manufacturing. That number is closer to 5% nowadays. To add gas to the fire, companies and executives are still trying to find ways to cut down on labor costs.
To clarify, I love the US, there is no other place I would rather be, but I do think this is a major problem, not just in Chicago, but nationwide. I want to see this country flourish like never before. However, there are major problems that need to be addressed, and I'm committed to achieving that solution. I hope this helps you understand my point of view!
Chicago being "overpoliced" is not something I have ever heard from any Chicagoan that I know—whether they live in Wrigleyville, Chatham, or Rogers Park. Every mature adult that I know says that they wished they had more patrolling in their neighborhood.
Are you from the North Shore? I don't know about Northbrook, but Evanston and Lake Forest are crawling with police round-the-clock, many of whom are plainclothes.
I live in Pilsen, but my family is from the North Shore(Go Trevians!). I've also lived all over the city(Logan Square, Uptown, Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Wrigleyville, and Pilsen). In my opinion, places like Lincoln Park are notably underpoliced. On the other hand, Pilsen has the largest presence of any neighborhood I've been in. When I walk my dog, it isn't uncommon to see 3-4 squad cars in the span of 20 minutes. Yes, policing does help but an overpoliced neighborhood usually just means that neighborhood will have the largest statistic for arrests. Crime can go unreported.
According to the FBI Crime Reporting Data(citation below), Chicago is the 10th most policed city in the United States, with about 48.2 officers per 10,000 people. That represents the 2nd largest police force in the US behind NYC. If policing is the only catalyst for safety, then we should be doing better. Also on this list are places like St. Louis, Newark, NJ,Philadelphia, and DC. Hardly crime free havens.
Yes, the North Shore does have police, as a teenager, I may have been arrested quite a few times for being, well, a teenager, but I can also say that the police there are far less heavy handed and I definitely got away with a ton of stuff in my day of hooliganism. You're also much less likely to be harassed or stopped for trivial reasons in these communities.
Going back to Pilsen, we did not have much help from the police during the riots. In fact, I had to help board up storefronts, create barricades, and I had to brandish a weapon and patrol my main commercial thoroughfare known as 18th st from 10pm-2am where we had a shift change. We even got more help from the local gangs La Raza, Latin Kings, and the SD's. Sure, vigilantism and shooting at people is not cool, but they did a helluva a lot more than the CPD did.
Again, I'm not saying policing is unnecessary. It is a part of every municipality in the world, but to truly solve this crisis on a long term, permanent basis, we need to address the root cause of the problem.
I don’t know how transparent other countries are with crime statistics or how they measure it.
Adding more CPD also is not going to solve the problem if they carry on with their old ways and refuse to reform themselves and how they police.
This.
Chicago already has the 2nd largest police force in the country, and Lightfoot announced 1,200 more on the streets soon. If more police meant less crime, then we would be a safe city. The national guard would either make no difference, or cause more unrest. Nobody wants to live in martial law. Furthermore, crime is rising, but it is nowhere near the 1970s-90s. Where was the national guard then?
The city ultimately experienced a decline in crime because of economic redevelopment, gentrification, and a demographic shift where people found appeal in urban cities.
Japster28 - much respect so please do not take my comments the wrong way – I am a middle aged white man so want to tread carefully. I read your responses and did not see solutions presented that are actionable. FYI – your comments regarding the job market – the entire narrative about Trump being opposed to immigration because of race is a concoction of Hillary Clinton directly out of the playbook of Mr. Saul Alinsky and it was effective – in reality, we want citizens of America to come first for jobs, then immigration to supplement as needed. Major tech companies support H1B increases – Hillary supported this as well which is nothing more than wage dilution regardless of your industry – that is why myself, and many like me, support Trump – not for racism. Canada actually has to pay more than the going rate if skills are in such high demand which limits the H1B program substantially compared to the US – maybe with such a program training would become the preference of employers especially for educated college graduates and I can assure you that Trump would support this.
Anyway, I digress, these communities need stability that admittedly was taken from them via poverty, enhanced policing, segregation, drug war, etc. so let us not debate how it happened, let us discuss what we can do to fix it. I think the tools are there, they just aren't being used - maybe the national guard + social workers + investment - it doesn't have to be an all or nothing. People with money, black, white or other aren't going to invest until they know their investments are safe - just a simple fact. These urban communities have an advantage – they are prime real estate in most cases – I am tired as F having to drive 45 minutes. Simply tossing money at it though has all been tried before – millions have been put into black communities for social programs but it never works – my high school was majority black, the education that worked for me didn’t work for many of the black kids. I noticed that those without solid families (which was the majority of the black kids I grew up with) weren’t as successful, never finished school and some were killed. I remember going to a friend’s house and seeing a picture on the wall of a black man with a gold chain – I asked who it was... he said it was his dad I asked where was he – he was a drug dealer from Fort Wayne, IN and was in prison.
Japster28 - much respect so please do not take my comments the wrong way – I am a middle aged white man so want to tread carefully. I read your responses and did not see solutions presented that are actionable. FYI – your comments regarding the job market – the entire narrative about Trump being opposed to immigration because of race is a concoction of Hillary Clinton directly out of the playbook of Mr. Saul Alinsky and it was effective – in reality, we want citizens of America to come first for jobs, then immigration to supplement as needed. Major tech companies support H1B increases – Hillary supported this as well which is nothing more than wage dilution regardless of your industry – that is why myself, and many like me, support Trump – not for racism. Canada actually has to pay more than the going rate if skills are in such high demand which limits the H1B program substantially compared to the US – maybe with such a program training would become the preference of employers especially for educated college graduates and I can assure you that Trump would support this.
Anyway, I digress, these communities need stability that admittedly was taken from them via poverty, enhanced policing, segregation, drug war, etc. so let us not debate how it happened, let us discuss what we can do to fix it. I think the tools are there, they just aren't being used - maybe the national guard + social workers + investment - it doesn't have to be an all or nothing. People with money, black, white or other aren't going to invest until they know their investments are safe - just a simple fact. These urban communities have an advantage – they are prime real estate in most cases – I am tired as F having to drive 45 minutes. Simply tossing money at it though has all been tried before – millions have been put into black communities for social programs but it never works – my high school was majority black, the education that worked for me didn’t work for many of the black kids. I noticed that those without solid families (which was the majority of the black kids I grew up with) weren’t as successful, never finished school and some were killed. I remember going to a friend’s house and seeing a picture on the wall of a black man with a gold chain – I asked who it was... he said it was his dad I asked where was he – he was a drug dealer from Fort Wayne, IN and was in prison.
Hey StopAtWilloughby,
Thanks for the thoughtful, cogent, and respectful response. While I don't personally subscribe to your form of politics, I do understand that logic and have some friends who share that ideal. Keep in mind I do abhor Secretary Clinton as well though lol. There few things I do want to add.
H1B Visas: you are correct in terms of wage dilution. Companies frequently pay H1B workers much less and that hurts our own prospects. However, there is also a dearth of workers to fill certain positions. There was a statistic that showed somewhere close to three quarters of Silicon Valley companies are composed of H1B Visa holders.
A training program for Americans to take up these positions would be great. But in order for us to institute this on a large scale, it needs to work. Something like 20% of workers who go through job retraining programs end up passing. That's an abysmal number that I frankly don't know how to solve. The other issue is our declining birth rate. I'm unsure of the number right now, but several states, Illinois included, have a negative birth rate, meaning not enough people are born to replace those who are deceased. This is happening all over the developed world and quite often the workforce is supplanted by immigration.
Germany is one such example, having supplemented its stagnating populace with labor from elsewhere. Without immigration, we risk becoming like Japan, which suffers from an old population, low birth rate, and increased cost. The burden of working age people will be very difficult as pensions, healthcare, and other things pertaining to the elderly continue to rise. This will likely happen in China soon, an accidental effect of the One Child Policy.
Immigration has also helped out our own city. Currently, the southwest side is being transformed dramatically into a Chinese enclave. This community has improved the safety, prosperity, and appeal of the area. Little Village, which is not exactly the safest area, still has a notable sense of stability. 26th st, the main thoroughfare in La Villita, is actually the 2nd largest retail corridor by revenue in the city. Only surpassed by Michigan Ave! Our census data from 1990-2000 was the only decade of population growth in decades, and it was largely fueled by immigration.
With all that being said, keep in mind I am in agreement that we need to look after our own citizens as well. I think there's a way for us to achieve both. We want high skilled talent from the best of the best, both from our country and the rest of the world. We also rely on immigrants for low skilled, "dirty" work. There's certainly an issue amongst American working/middle class. That should be addressed, we do need to take care of our own.
I do agree with your statement that social programs in the past haven't worked. There is a way to tackle poverty, violence, and inequality, but clearly we've been doing it wrong. Also, yes, broken families are truly a problem for American youth. But, there is a bevy of divorcees among wealthy communities as well. It's never good, but these children are poised to do better than their peers in lower income brackets.
I wholeheartedly agree that communities should be safe before there is reinvestment. There should be a bit of both when we consider how we tackle the crime problem in Chicago. Enforcement and investment go hand in hand. I just feel that we focus too much on the enforcement side. Policing doesn't usually prevent a crime. Improving education, social workers, affordable housing opportunities(I'm waiting for somebody to mention Cabrini-Green as a counter argument lol) amongst other things are things that can prevent crime. As I have mentioned before, huge swathes of Chicago improved not just because of policing, but because meaningful investment was put into these communities and they saw change for the better.
On another note, your friend with the incarcerated father, I wonder what type of drugs he was dealing. We have millions of people still in prison for marijuana, which is legal for about 1/5th of American citizens. I personally find that to be absurd. The US needs to engage in penal reform. Prison recidivism is way too high. A prison sentence is typically punitive, and their record only makes things harder for them to reenter society. If you can't get a job, you might end up resorting to crime. Now, I'm not saying we stop putting people in prison for committing crimes, not at all, but prisons need to refocus on rehabilitation and providing a chance for inmates to get back on their feet. There are programs, but they are few and far between and they will continue to get smaller as budgets are cut and private prisons are erected. This is not to mention the reports of terrible inmate abuse amongst prison guards. You can find some of this in Illinois from the John Howard Association, an Illinois prison oversight organization.
So to sum things up, here's a few things we might need to focus on:
Improve our education system, increase/improve after school programs, social work, PTO, post college counseling, and yes, safety. That last part may or may not involve police depending on your stance.
Affordable housing: I'm not exactly poor but housing costs in Chicago are very high. I can only imagine how one living on a minimum wage manages. There needs to be incentives in place for people to build more units at a reasonable price which will alleviate prices on the market side of things. In Chicago, a vast majority of new housing is luxury, and thus unattainable to those who can't afford it. This in turn, means that lower income people have homes that are both older, and in worse condition than their wealthier peers. Sure, rich people can have nice things, but I don't think it's too much to ask for poorer people to have an up to date home. Another proposal could be an increase in section 8 housing or a reform to the system allowing for more applicants. I'm sure some of the more fiscally minded people would hate this idea. But I'm of the opinion the government has the money. I mean, our defense budget is already sky high, we can afford trillions in quantitative easing of financial markets, and we literally gave everybody $1200. I'm under no illusion that the US can afford to do more. This may reduce crime by decreasing the financial burden of families that need it.
Job training/programs, neighborhood reinvestment: Some people might hate these ideas too, but we do need to increase these programs for those who need it. Crime and poverty usually have a correlation. Maybe Chicago could use some of those TIFs on distressed neighborhoods, rather than further enriching places like Lincoln Park with the Lincoln Yards development.
Prison Reform: This is a big one, we have the largest incarcerated population and Chicago is a large facet of that. Prisons need to turn away from punishment and lean closer to reforming their inmates. Because once an inmate leaves, it is likely they'll be back later. It creates a financial and social burden on the city, state, and country.
Community oriented policing/reform: I know I said I'm not focusing on policing, but I do think there is a place for it. I think we need to find a better balance between repression and prevention. We focus too much on the repression side. Police need to not just enforce the law and make arrests, but there should be a concerted effort to build ties between cops and people in their neighborhood. This can include putting cops in their own neighborhoods or having quotas on hirees from each area. We can possibly include organized neighborhood watches, maybe events that help build relationships between us and the police. This is a stupid example, but I remember being a kid and going to the pancake breakfast at the local fire department. Point is, the police have lost their trust and respect in most communities. They need to shake off their reputation as pigs. It would help them solve crimes and help prevent crimes if they are respected in the community. Unfortunately, in Chicago's most violent areas, they are met with scorn and fear. Nobody wants to talk to cops, no one wants to snitch, and people are afraid they'll get punished for trivial things, or, in some cases, nothing at all. I think overall the police department focuses too much on patrolling people, which is different from protecting people.
These are just a few things/ideas. I'm a finance and computer science guy and not a sociologist/policy maker so I'm no expert. Anyway, my fingers are tired and I don't want to get into the more "controversial" stuff.
I realize I'm probably asking too much. But pie in the sky is what I shoot for, Chicago probably doesn't have the resources, capability, or competence to make meaningful change. I think that would have to come from the federal government if anything. A top down makeover if you will.
Going back to opportunity, there is much less opportunity for advancement in low wage jobs. I'm not saying that a minimum wage job is great, but it is unlikely or difficult for you to get a good raise, benefits, or a promotion.
Even in jobs that require a college degree, the tuition rate has skyrocketed 1400% since 1978. I graduated after 4 years with $150,000 in college debt. If I had attended my dream school, McGill, in Montreal, QC, that number would have been closer to 40-50,000. Of course, no qualms about my alma mater either, DePaul University(Go Blue Demons). !
And what do you think (or rather who) drove up those tuitions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by japster28
Hey StopAtWilloughby,
Thanks for the thoughtful, cogent, and respectful response. While I don't personally subscribe to your form of politics, I do understand that logic and have some friends who share that ideal. Keep in mind I do abhor Secretary Clinton as well though lol. There few things I do want to add.
H1B Visas: you are correct in terms of wage dilution. Companies frequently pay H1B workers much less and that hurts our own prospects. However, there is also a dearth of workers to fill certain positions. There was a statistic that showed somewhere close to three quarters of Silicon Valley companies are composed of H1B Visa holders.
A training program for Americans to take up these positions would be great. But in order for us to institute this on a large scale, it needs to work. Something like 20% of workers who go through job retraining programs end up passing. That's an abysmal number that I frankly don't know how to solve. The other issue is our declining birth rate. I'm unsure of the number right now, but several states, Illinois included, have a negative birth rate, meaning not enough people are born to replace those who are deceased. This is happening all over the developed world and quite often the workforce is supplanted by immigration.
Germany is one such example, having supplemented its stagnating populace with labor from elsewhere. Without immigration, we risk becoming like Japan, which suffers from an old population, low birth rate, and increased cost. The burden of working age people will be very difficult as pensions, healthcare, and other things pertaining to the elderly continue to rise. This will likely happen in China soon, an accidental effect of the One Child Policy.
Immigration has also helped out our own city. Currently, the southwest side is being transformed dramatically into a Chinese enclave. This community has improved the safety, prosperity, and appeal of the area. Little Village, which is not exactly the safest area, still has a notable sense of stability. 26th st, the main thoroughfare in La Villita, is actually the 2nd largest retail corridor by revenue in the city. Only surpassed by Michigan Ave! Our census data from 1990-2000 was the only decade of population growth in decades, and it was largely fueled by immigration.
With all that being said, keep in mind I am in agreement that we need to look after our own citizens as well. I think there's a way for us to achieve both. We want high skilled talent from the best of the best, both from our country and the rest of the world. We also rely on immigrants for low skilled, "dirty" work. There's certainly an issue amongst American working/middle class. That should be addressed, we do need to take care of our own.
I do agree with your statement that social programs in the past haven't worked. There is a way to tackle poverty, violence, and inequality, but clearly we've been doing it wrong. Also, yes, broken families are truly a problem for American youth. But, there is a bevy of divorcees among wealthy communities as well. It's never good, but these children are poised to do better than their peers in lower income brackets.
I wholeheartedly agree that communities should be safe before there is reinvestment. There should be a bit of both when we consider how we tackle the crime problem in Chicago. Enforcement and investment go hand in hand. I just feel that we focus too much on the enforcement side. Policing doesn't usually prevent a crime. Improving education, social workers, affordable housing opportunities(I'm waiting for somebody to mention Cabrini-Green as a counter argument lol) amongst other things are things that can prevent crime. As I have mentioned before, huge swathes of Chicago improved not just because of policing, but because meaningful investment was put into these communities and they saw change for the better.
On another note, your friend with the incarcerated father, I wonder what type of drugs he was dealing. We have millions of people still in prison for marijuana, which is legal for about 1/5th of American citizens. I personally find that to be absurd. The US needs to engage in penal reform. Prison recidivism is way too high. A prison sentence is typically punitive, and their record only makes things harder for them to reenter society. If you can't get a job, you might end up resorting to crime. Now, I'm not saying we stop putting people in prison for committing crimes, not at all, but prisons need to refocus on rehabilitation and providing a chance for inmates to get back on their feet. There are programs, but they are few and far between and they will continue to get smaller as budgets are cut and private prisons are erected. This is not to mention the reports of terrible inmate abuse amongst prison guards. You can find some of this in Illinois from the John Howard Association, an Illinois prison oversight organization.
So to sum things up, here's a few things we might need to focus on:
Improve our education system, increase/improve after school programs, social work, PTO, post college counseling, and yes, safety. That last part may or may not involve police depending on your stance.
Affordable housing: I'm not exactly poor but housing costs in Chicago are very high. I can only imagine how one living on a minimum wage manages. There needs to be incentives in place for people to build more units at a reasonable price which will alleviate prices on the market side of things. In Chicago, a vast majority of new housing is luxury, and thus unattainable to those who can't afford it. This in turn, means that lower income people have homes that are both older, and in worse condition than their wealthier peers. Sure, rich people can have nice things, but I don't think it's too much to ask for poorer people to have an up to date home. Another proposal could be an increase in section 8 housing or a reform to the system allowing for more applicants. I'm sure some of the more fiscally minded people would hate this idea. But I'm of the opinion the government has the money. I mean, our defense budget is already sky high, we can afford trillions in quantitative easing of financial markets, and we literally gave everybody $1200. I'm under no illusion that the US can afford to do more. This may reduce crime by decreasing the financial burden of families that need it.
Job training/programs, neighborhood reinvestment: Some people might hate these ideas too, but we do need to increase these programs for those who need it. Crime and poverty usually have a correlation. Maybe Chicago could use some of those TIFs on distressed neighborhoods, rather than further enriching places like Lincoln Park with the Lincoln Yards development.
Prison Reform: This is a big one, we have the largest incarcerated population and Chicago is a large facet of that. Prisons need to turn away from punishment and lean closer to reforming their inmates. Because once an inmate leaves, it is likely they'll be back later. It creates a financial and social burden on the city, state, and country.
Community oriented policing/reform: I know I said I'm not focusing on policing, but I do think there is a place for it. I think we need to find a better balance between repression and prevention. We focus too much on the repression side. Police need to not just enforce the law and make arrests, but there should be a concerted effort to build ties between cops and people in their neighborhood. This can include putting cops in their own neighborhoods or having quotas on hirees from each area. We can possibly include organized neighborhood watches, maybe events that help build relationships between us and the police. This is a stupid example, but I remember being a kid and going to the pancake breakfast at the local fire department. Point is, the police have lost their trust and respect in most communities. They need to shake off their reputation as pigs. It would help them solve crimes and help prevent crimes if they are respected in the community. Unfortunately, in Chicago's most violent areas, they are met with scorn and fear. Nobody wants to talk to cops, no one wants to snitch, and people are afraid they'll get punished for trivial things, or, in some cases, nothing at all. I think overall the police department focuses too much on patrolling people, which is different from protecting people.
These are just a few things/ideas. I'm a finance and computer science guy and not a sociologist/policy maker so I'm no expert. Anyway, my fingers are tired and I don't want to get into the more "controversial" stuff.
I realize I'm probably asking too much. But pie in the sky is what I shoot for, Chicago probably doesn't have the resources, capability, or competence to make meaningful change. I think that would have to come from the federal government if anything. A top down makeover if you will.
I am crying BS on the thing about all the prisoners in their for small time marijuana offenses. I say this is another Democrat lie.
And guess what? Trump DID prison reform. No doubt you didn't hear about it on MSM.
There is next-to-nobody in prison for marijuana. There are people imprisoned for marijuana charges alongside other "more serious" offenses like violent crime. Marijuana has been largely decriminalized for a very long time across the country, and at no time have there been millions of people in prison for it.
Republicans have proven better at criminal justice reform because they can't be plausibly accused of being soft on crime. For example, Republican-led reforms in Georgia have led to a 30% drop in the incarceration of black males in the past 9 years. This exceeds the 19% decline in prison admissions during the same period.
Unless your'e willing to have them for stay years, possibly decades, it's just a temporary fix. Crime will go down while they're here but jump back up when they leave. Violent people will continue to be violent after they are gone and they'll resort to their violent ways.
Agree. I voted "YES," but mentioned the same thing. Realistically, they can't stay forever, and it's very likely crime would go back to normal once they left. I could see it being helpful if their presence led to clues/strategies that law enforcement could use to sustain things once they left.
Pertaining to college, there are many reasons. Administration costs, marketing, and general demand have certainly played a part. Reduction in state budgets have also done a number on colleges nationwide. I'd like to add that financial aid has an adverse effect on tuition. It sounds crazy, but if the schools know kids are getting financial aid, they might feel inclined to price gouge them. It is said that for every new dollar of financial aid, an additional 65 cents are added to school tuitions. I think if wages had followed at a commensurate rate people wouldn't be so concerned about it.
I had heard about the First Step Act. I was mainly pleased by the retroactivity of the fair sentencing act, as well as the incentive for good behavior that was put in place. I do hope things are implemented correctly, and that it leads us to a desired outcome. I do hope the Next Step Act goes to committee sooner rather than later. Also, the law applies to the Federal Bureau of Prisons. I'd like to see similar reform happen on the state level.
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