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Thank you again for your questions. I believe I already clarified my position of Romans 12, and I believe it is not proposing what you are proposing, but that is besides the point, as you are asking me whether faith, comes after rebirth. In Romans 10:9-11, the Apostle Paul teaches, “Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe ( adhere to, trust in and rely on the truth ) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes ( adheres to, trusts in and relies on Christ ) and so is justified ( declared righteous, acceptable to God ) and with the mouth he confesses ( declares openly and speaks out freely his faith ) and confirms ( his ) salvation”. We must not place these things inside a fitted box to identify them individually, but rather they are all instances, whether coming from God, or from man, that completes the saving grace and work. Faith is a reaction of what man has experienced, it comes during re-birth, or regeneration, and is directly related to it. It is a result of being convicted. The Holy Spirit acts, man responds with faith, he confess, then he is saved. First God acts, man responds, man responds, God gives. I hope I have answered you adequately.
God bless you.
Do you disagree with the idea of irresistible grace?
Do you disagree with the idea of irresistible grace?
Hello Ironamw1776,
Thank you for your further questions into my theology. I want to stress again, that I agree with many different sects of Christianity. That is Calvinsim, Arminian, Roman Catholic, and many others, but not one of them all as a whole. This particular doctrine in Christian theology associated with Calvinism, teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save, that is the elect, and, in His timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. - Wikipedia.
The call of the Gospel, is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that is acting on the man who is being regenerated. This brings them to faith. Faith is still a human response to God's calling. From what I am seeing of these very pertinent question you poise, correct me if I am wrong please, is that you are wanting a black and white schematic for salvation. The schematic is God's own. The blueprint for salvation involves man's faith, confession, endurance, etc. But it is only for God to give and choose who He gives it to. God knows how man is going to react to the gospel, just as He knew how man was going to react in the garden. Man has free will. I believe the Bible says that salvation is notsolely supported only on man's actions, but it is a gift from God, for man's actions in times of trial, and in times of peace. I hope I have explained myself further so you can understand that, not one view or sect of Christianity is correct wholly, but all of them have truths within them, what the hard part is, finding an acceptable answer in the Bible, so these doctrines from all throughout the spectrum, are confrimed by the scripture.
God bless you.
Last edited by JerimiahJohnson; 07-24-2010 at 03:38 PM..
Thank you for your further questions into my theology. I want to stress again, that I agree with many different sects of Christianity. That is Calvinsim, Arminian, Roman Catholic, and many others, but not one of them all as a whole. This particular doctrine in Christian theology associated with Calvinism, teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save, that is the elect, and, in His timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. - Wikipedia.
The call of the Gospel, is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that is acting on the man who is being regenerated. This brings them to faith. Faith is still a human response to God's calling. From what I am seeing of these very pertinent question you poise, correct me if I am wrong please, is that you are wanting a black and white schematic for salvation. The schematic is God's own. The blueprint for salvation involves man's faith, confession, endurance, etc. But it is only for God to give and choose who He gives it to. God knows how man is going to react to the gospel, just as He knew how man was going to react in the garden. Man has free will. I believe the Bible says that salvation is notsolely supported only on man's actions, but it is a gift from God, for man's actions in times of trial, and in times of peace. I hope I have explained myself further so you can understand that, not one view or sect of Christianity is correct wholly, but all of them have truths within them, what the hard part is, finding an acceptable answer in the Bible, so these doctrines from all throughout the spectrum, are confrimed by the scripture.
God bless you.
I hope that i am not testing your patience ... I am only curious about your opinion, and i appreciate your candidness. I guess i should have framed my question more directly. What i meant to ask simply put is if you believe man can and does resist Gods grace.
I gather from your answer above that your answer is yes on both accounts.
So i also gather that you believe election is not about Gods power to change man, but rather is only Gods ability to know what man will choose for themselves. And from this i assume you believe that God merely offers mankind the opportunity to save themselves by choosing to accept his grace through learning the truth and accepting it of their own volition.
This again is where we disagree ... I suppose we do disagree on many things concerning our individual hermeneutics.
Concerning your question to me, the answer is emphatically yes ... I believe salvation is very black and white. That is to say i believe every aspect of salvation is the work of God, and that men are simply clay in his hands which he fashions first to dishonor and then to honor, first to wrath and then to mercy. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of Gods will in all things, and I do not believe in free will. I believe that free will is ultimately a delusion and an illusion of the philosophy and traditions of man. That is to say i believe the truth of the matter is man is a slave to one of either two masters, either he is a slave to his natural and carnal incilantion, or to the spiritual inclination born from above. And i believe that even after we are born again of the spirit, we struggle against our two inclinations, in the flesh we serve sin and death, but in our hearts and minds we serve God. As it is written, we love the one(God), and hate the other(sin) though we are still subject to sin in our mortal(corrupt) flesh, and will always be until we transcend this world and put on immortality(incorruptibility).
Thank you again for your conversation ...
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-24-2010 at 04:31 PM..
Originally Posted by herefornow THAT'S what infuriates me most; that abused/malnourished/exhausted kids and adults all over the globe are told that God LOVES them but if they don't believe, follow, and run the race to the VERY END even though they are exhausted, confused, and/or mentally tormented, God will torch or ignore them for eternity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Perserverence of the Saints...
No wonder it's cold out there. Brrrrrr........
That's me, shivering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
A look at the word "aionion"
by Matt Slick
Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.
To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.
The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.
With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion. How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?
The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.
John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.
Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used. - A look at the word "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Simple question here. Is Sodom still on fire? The Bible speaks SO MANY times of an unquenchable fire and an everlasting fire (God's anger and judgment on a nation, as we can see from the verses below) and on and on and on, but it ALWAYS ends!!!
I wonder why all of a sudden, when speaking of fire in the New Testament, people have decided the fire is literal. Western minds?
When the Jews heard Jesus talking about Gehenna (Hell) they KNEW he was talking of an IMMINENT national judgment coming to them. 70 A.D.
This was NEVER talking about a literal eternal fire for unbelievers 2000 years later!! The Jews would have laughed at such a thing.
Here are a FEW of the verses that speak of fire FIGURATIVELY, speaking of God's unquenchable fire (anger) concerning national judgment.
Isaiah 33:10,11. Now I will arise, says the Lord, now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up. You have conceived chaff, you will give birth to stubble; my breath will consume you like a fire, and the peoples will be burned to lime, like cut thorns which are burned in the fire....Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning? (Speaking of God, who IS the eternal fire)
Daniel 7. I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him. (Is there a literal fire coming out of his throne?)
Deuteronomy 32:22. For a fire is kindled in My anger, and burns to the lowest part of Sheol, and consumes the earth with its yield, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Did he set the mountains on fire? No. He was speaking of national judgment)
Ezekiel 20:47,48. Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree;the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched. (Did he set the whole area on literal fire? Or was it his anger that was not quenched? Was he angry with them for eternity? National judgment)
Amos. Seek the Lord that you may live, lest He break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it consume with none to quench it for Bethel. (National judgment at the hands of the Assyrians)
Isaiah 66. For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and His chariots like the whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For the Lord will execute judgment by fire, and by His sword on all flesh. (Speaking of a future judgment by the Romans in 70 A.D.)
Jeremiah. For I have set My face against this city for harm and not for good, declares the Lord. It will be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will burn it with fire. Then say to the household of the king of Judah, Hear the word of the Lord, O house of David, thus says the Lord: Administer justice every morning; and deliver the person who has been robbed from the power of the oppressor. That My wrath may not go forth like fire and burn with none to extinguish it, because of the evil of their deeds. (National judgment 586 B.C)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Good article. Every time I ask universalists how long eternal life is, they have no answer, because they agree it is indeed eternal, yet they insist that the same word, when used in eternal torment, means something less.
We have answered you plenty of times. Me thinks you will not listen. You have been told repeatedly that God IS eternal life. You can have GOD. Therefore, you have eternal life. YOU are not eternal. You will become immortal.
Please read the above post to Richard1965 for a few simple explanations on "eternal torment." Well, as simple as I can make it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The universalist cherry picked bible verses fail the 'compare scripture to scripture' test every time, and they end up running around looking to explain the contradictions somehow, but the more they speak the more they expose the weaknesses in their arguments. And of course the wanton disregard of the rest of the scriptures is the mark of a false teaching.
Nobody is running around. We are sitting at our computers patiently typing the same thing over and over. Well, sometimes patiently.
Last edited by herefornow; 07-24-2010 at 04:58 PM..
I hope that i am not testing your patience ... I am only curious about your opinion, and i appreciate your candidness. I guess i should have framed my question more directly. What i meant to ask simply put is if you believe man can and does resist Gods grace.
I gather from your answer above that your answer is yes on both accounts.
So i also gather that you believe election is not about Gods power to change man, but rather is only Gods ability to know what man will choose for themselves. And from this i assume you believe that God merely offers mankind the opportunity to save themselves by choosing to accept his grace through learning the truth and accepting it of their own volition.
This again is where we disagree ... I suppose we do disagree on many things concerning our individual hermeneutics.
Concerning your question to me, the answer is emphatically yes ... I believe salvation is very black and white. That is to say i believe every aspect of salvation is the work of God, and that men are simply clay in his hands which he fashions first to dishonor and then to honor, first to wrath and then to mercy. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of Gods will in all things, and I do not believe in free will. I believe that free will is ultimately a delusion and an illusion of the philosophy and traditions of man. That is to say i believe the truth of the matter is man is a slave to one of either two masters, either he is a slave to his natural and carnal incilantion, or to the spiritual inclination born from above. And i believe that even after we are born again of the spirit, we struggle against our two inclinations, in the flesh we serve sin and death, but in our hearts and minds we serve God. As it is written, we love the one(God), and hate the other(sin) though we are still subject to sin in our mortal(corrupt) flesh, and will always be until we transcend this world and put on immortality(incorruptibility).
Thank you again for your conversation ...
God bless ...
Hello Ironmaw1776,
Thank you for your response to my post. You are correct in your assumptions of my theology based on what we have talked about, however, I would like to ask you a quetion if you don't mind pertaining to something you posted above. You said that I possibly believe election is not about Gods power to change man, but rather is only Gods ability to know what man will choose for themselves. Isn't that still God's power over man, whether He is doing or knowing man would do in reaction to His call? Man doing what God already knew would occur is still power over man as I see it. Doesn't He know and has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world? If faith is the gift, then it is faith and not the atoning work of Christ on the cross which is the sacrificial offering made up to God, and what is the centerpiece of salvation. Regeneration, as I understand it, can be an immediate, one single action and event, or it can be long, and drawn out events over a period of time. Regeneration involves many different events that consummate into salvation. I believe God can elect in accordance to his foreknowledge of our choices, as Peter says, "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". The Bible portrays faith as a human responsibility which is developed in response to and in cooperation with God, as we see both in the Old and New Testaments. "Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn’t waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith , giving glory to God. My friend, you are not trying my patience. This is blessed conversastion! God bless you.
Thank you for your response to my post. You are correct in your assumptions of my theology based on what we have talked about, however, I would like to ask you a quetion if you don't mind pertaining to something you posted above. You said that I possibly believe election is not about Gods power to change man, but rather is only Gods ability to know what man will choose for themselves. Isn't that still God's power over man, whether He is doing or knowing man would do in reaction to His call? Man doing what God already knew would occur is still power over man as I see it. Doesn't He know and has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world? If faith is the gift, then it is faith and not the atoning work of Christ on the cross which is the sacrificial offering made up to God, and what is the centerpiece of salvation. Regeneration, as I understand it, can be an immediate, one single action and event, or it can be long, and drawn out events over a period of time. Regeneration involves many different events that consummate into salvation. I believe God can elect in accordance to his foreknowledge of our choices, as Peter says, "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". The Bible portrays faith as a human responsibility which is developed in response to and in cooperation with God, as we see both in the Old and New Testaments. "Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn’t waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith , giving glory to God. My friend, you are not trying my patience. This is blessed conversastion! God bless you.
You wrote ...
Quote:
You said that I possibly believe election is not about Gods power to change man, but rather is only Gods ability to know what man will choose for themselves. Isn't that still God's power over man, whether He is doing or knowing man would do in reaction to His call?
I don believe so personally ...
Man can see the future based on what we know about the past, as the nature of time is that history almost always repeats itself. But the power of one to change the the future or the present for that matter is something altogether different, and that is what i believe Christ did when he died for the world and resurrected. I believe God knows everything that will happen ultimately because he is the one who has set everything into motion and ultimately steers all things along their courses. So it is written ...
Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
and ...
Eph 1:11
in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
and ...
Psa 37:23
From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
and ...
Pro 16:9
The heart of man deviseth his way, And Jehovah establisheth his step.
and again ...
Jer 10:23
I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
and yet again ...
Rom 9:15-18
For he said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
I believe that it is clear that God is the one who hardens a mans heart or gives them a heart of flesh(has compassion on them and takes softens their heart), again as it is written ...
Eze 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
and ...
Isa 57:16-19
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
It is God who heals and changes the heart in order to show the riches of his glory, and it is God who hardens the heart to make his power known in judgment. Again as it is written ...
Rom 9:22-26 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
and again ...
Jer 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
You wrote ...
Quote:
If faith is the gift, then it is faith and not the atoning work of Christ on the cross which is the sacrificial offering made up to God, and what is the centerpiece of salvation.
I disagree, i believe that it is both the faith of Christ which is dealt to all that believe and the Grace of God in the sacrifice of his son which are two sides of the same coin which is the gift of salvation. Christs death on the cross was for the remittance of sin, and the gift of his faith to us is for our reconciliation to God. That is to say, Christ died for sin, and he gives us faith through reformation(being born again of the spirit) so that we might repent and come to acknowledge the truth and believe. As it is written ...
2Ti 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth
We cannot repent and acknowledge the truth and thereby have faith in the truth who is Christ if we are not given repentance to begin with.
I agree that regeneration is a process, but i do not agree that the bible teaches that it is mans responsibility to have faith. Man is incapable of doing anything of himself which pleases God, our most righteous works are as dirty rags before him, only when a man has faith can he please God(Hbr 11:6), but is is God who works within us to will and do what pleases him(Phl 2:13), i.e repent and acknowledge the truth and have faith. If it were not for the work that God does in us we would not repent or acknowledge the truth and have faith and thereby please him.
I think that in claiming that it is our responsibility to have faith, it is the same as saying it is our responsibility to save ourselves, as only through faith will we be saved, though by grace. And if such is the case, that is to say if it is our responsibility to have faith, then we can boast of having it to begin with.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-24-2010 at 06:18 PM..
You bring up good points, but as I have said before, I believe that faith is merely a response, although connected, to the convction of the Holy Spirit. Man is born again, after he has confessed in Christ, thus completing the act of salvation. As you have pointed out, only God gives us faith, but if God gave us faith, then salvation and the gospel is not needed, and we are to sit and wait to recieve it or not. There has to be an action in part of man. Man must acknowledge what has been shown to him, and respond in belief. If all events and acts of the salvation process are God's own personal handiwork, and man has no part in it whatsoever, then it isn't a relationship, but rather an militant order, and His fellow subjects to follow that order. From what I understand of the Bible, God convicts man through the Holy Spirit, and man responds to that conviction. His response is called faith. This is an act, although influenced by God's calling, is an act on man's part. You propose to me that if this be so, then man is in control of his salvation. The Bible denies this, and says salvation is a gift from God, based on our faith, not our works. Salvation is the free gift, for man's preserverance in faith. Because of God's continuous grace on that man, that man continues in faith. Faith cannot be given, but what can be given is the evidence that gives faith. So yes, in part faith is indirectly given to us by God, but only through the evidence, Jesus Christ, is it realized in us. But faith is not solely an emotional "response" given to us by God. It is something that is the result in what God has given us I believe. God chooses, I feel, based on our choices in life, to elect us into the faith. He knows these things from the beginning of time, and will always know these things thereafter, but there is still a relationship occuring, and involves man's free willed worship of God who has drawn them to Him. For me, it isnt an either or situation, but rather, a relationship that is based solely on the communion between a wife and husband as Paul clearly explained for us. To me, it's give and take. God knows what man is going to choose and chooses him, and God chooses that man based on what he is going to choose. That is the foreknowledge of election. In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love. Faith is not the product of an unregenerated human nature, but of one who has seen the evidence and believed. Regeneration results in faith. And faith results in confession. And confession results in salvation, the gift. The very nature of faith is an admission that man is unable to earn or merit salvation but rests on God alone and His grace. It is an act of the will prompted by the moving of God’s abundant grace. Faith is not the act of doing something but of receiving something. If God requires faith of all men, why doesn't he just give it to everybody?
Thanks for the great discussion. God bless you in your studies.
Last edited by JerimiahJohnson; 07-24-2010 at 07:19 PM..
I believe if man can be seduced like he was in the garden by the devil , he can also be won over easily by love of God .It's not militant or by force , but by a love that cannot be resisted.
You see a man is affected by what he sees , the Genesis 3 account undeniably proves this .
So God does not force Himself upon us , He wins us over .
You bring up good points, but as I have said before, I believe that faith is merely a response, although connected, to the convction of the Holy Spirit. Man is born again, after he has confessed in Christ, thus completing the act of salvation. As you have pointed out, only God gives us faith, but if God gave us faith, then salvation and the gospel is not needed, and we are to sit and wait to recieve it or not. There has to be an action in part of man. Man must acknowledge what has been shown to him, and respond in belief. If all events and acts of the salvation process are God's own personal handiwork, and man has no part in it whatsoever, then it isn't a relationship, but rather an militant order, and His fellow subjects to follow that order. From what I understand of the Bible, God convicts man through the Holy Spirit, and man responds to that conviction. His response is called faith. This is an act, although influenced by God's calling, is an act on man's part. You propose to me that if this be so, then man is in control of his salvation. The Bible denies this, and says salvation is a gift from God, based on our faith, not our works. Salvation is the free gift, for man's preserverance in faith. Because of God's continuous grace on that man, that man continues in faith. Faith cannot be given, but what can be given is the evidence that gives faith. So yes, in part faith is indirectly given to us by God, but only through the evidence, Jesus Christ, is it realized in us. But faith is not solely an emotional "response" given to us by God. It is something that is the result in what God has given us I believe. God chooses, I feel, based on our choices in life, to elect us into the faith. He knows these things from the beginning of time, and will always know these things thereafter, but there is still a relationship occuring, and involves man's free willed worship of God who has drawn them to Him. For me, it isnt an either or situation, but rather, a relationship that is based solely on the communion between a wife and husband as Paul clearly explained for us. To me, it's give and take. God knows what man is going to choose and chooses him, and God chooses that man based on what he is going to choose. That is the foreknowledge of election. In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love. Faith is not the product of an unregenerated human nature, but of one who has seen the evidence and believed. Regeneration results in faith. And faith results in confession. And confession results in salvation, the gift. Thanks for the great discussion. If God requires faith of all men, why doesn't he just give it to everybody? God bless you in your studies.
I thought it had merit...well thought out and logical...
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Western minds? 
