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Well, I agree, but this is my mother we are talking about. Personally, I think she represents Satan, if there is such a thing. Unfortunately, the woman spouts venom. It doesn't do wonders for Christianity.
Why do I have a feeling I've heard this woe before...
Don't get me wrong...I love my mother dearly, I just pray that she frees herself from the religious bondage which gave her the spirit of utter contempt for anything that is not of her doctrinal mindset. As long as religion is not mentioned...she could be the most loving mother there is...otherwise...oh boy!
Why do I have a feeling I've heard this woe before...
Don't get me wrong...I love my mother dearly, I just pray that she frees herself from the religious bondage which gave her the spirit of utter contempt for anything that is not of her doctrinal mindset. As long as religion is not mentioned...she could be the most loving mother there is...otherwise...oh boy!
Blessings...
Yep. My mother takes it even further, too. You not only have to be of her religion, you have to be of her synod, but also of her church, oh, and in the same pew, but wait a minute...unless you are her, you are going to hell. True. She has stood up at church meetings and told people that they are of the devil. I've never seen anything like her. She firmly believes that everyone is going to hell but her. Imagine my relief to realize that not all mothers were like her. And she honestly has no idea that she is doing anything wrong. She's a mess.
Well, I agree, but this is my mother we are talking about. Personally, I think she represents Satan, if there is such a thing. Unfortunately, the woman spouts venom. It doesn't do wonders for Christianity.
so sorry--sounds like she's related to my ex mother in law or someone in that family
Just because someone recently converted, or better yet, went to their girlfriend's Lutheran church, it doesn't make you an expert on Lutheran Marianology. I was born into and raised in the Lutheran faith and I am 49. I may be an atheist now but I know what Lutherans believe.
By the way, what branch of Lutheran are we talking about? Missouri Synod? Wisconsin? ELCA?
Lutherans may have carvings or pictures of Mary, but they are not worshiping her or even asking for her help or intercession.
Yes, the worship service is almost identical in many, many ways, but saying the Nicene creed and praying to Mary for help are two very, very, very different things. My entire family would faint if they realized newcomers misunderstood these things.
From that same link.
Luther came to criticize Roman Catholics for blurring the distinction between high admiration of the grace of God wherever it is manifested in human beings and religious service offered to them and other mere creatures. In some instances he considered the Roman Catholic practice of making intercessory requests addressed especially to Mary and other departed saints to be idolatry.[27]
"Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"[28] This distinction separates Lutheran views from Roman Catholic Mariology. It is also significant in the context of Roman Catholic claims, that modern Protestants deserted Luther's Mariology. Roman Catholics and Protestants may have held some similar views on Mary in the 16th century, but for Luther it was a "passive" Mariology, while for Roman Catholics it was "active" in suggesting devout veneration ("hyperdulia") and constant prayers for intercession. Questions have been raised, if the Marian views of Martin Luther could bring separated Christians closer together. These seems to be scepticism on both sides.[29] The eighth "Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue" addressed these issues.
Throughout Luther's life, he called Mary by the title Theotokos, Mother of God,[30] but at the same time he rejected the active invocation of Mary as formulated in such prayers as the "Hail Mary."[31] Protestantism usually follows the reformers in rejecting the practice of directly addressing Mary and other saints in prayers of admiration or petition, as part of their religious worship of God.[32]
And as much as Luther praised Mary, the Lutheran faith has traveled even further away from that. Also, August 15 is considered a lesser festival day. Many Lutheran churches don't celebrate it or even recognize it and Missouri Synod and Wisconsin would NEVER do such a thing. Your new in that faith and I don't think you understand its history.
Once again, if anything I side with the Roman Catholics on where they stand, but I KNOW what Lutheran doctrine is. If you have any questions, I suggest you ask the pastor. He will enlighten you.
I find it odd that someone who claims to dislike Lutherans thinks they know Lutheran theology or how Mary is viewed in Lutheran churches. I don't have to qualify my Lutheran credentials but I joined over 30 years ago, an am a Eucharistic minister at my parish [I help distribute communion at church and take the sacrament to the sick in hospitals\ nursing homes in case you are unfamilair with the practice].
Nobody claims that Lutherans pray to Mary because clearly we do not. It is my understanding that Roman Catholics also do not pray to Mary but I can't speak to that. Why you focus on something that was no even mentioned is odd to me and seems to point to strong anti-catholic bias such as your comments that your Lutheran mother despises Catholics.
My parish may be more "catholic" but I have been in many different Lutheran churches and know the difference between the synods. Just Google the Missouri Synod and Mary and see what kind of responses you get. Here are some:
"But Mary is also our Mother. She is the first real Christian – the one to whom God spoke that the prophetic word would be fulfilled in her womb, of the Word made flesh to dwell among us, full of grace and truth . . . Today we pray that grace would be our hope and foundation as it was for Mary, that we might trust in God and welcome His will as she trusted in Him and consented to His will and purpose so long ago. The saints of old are not lights to shine on themselves but beacons of borrowed light that point to Christ. This is Mary, Virgin Mother of God and the one whom all generations have and will called blessed; whom we remember today with the prayer that we would be like her in faith, trust, witness, and confession. Amen!" Pastoral Meanderings
"Next, to explore the traditional Catholic views of Mary involving her perpetual virginity, immaculate conception, her being queen of heaven, mediatrix, assumption, and how she is to be venerated. It may surprise many, but Martin Luther adhered to a number of these. Luther believed in her perpetual virginity, that she was “ever virgin” as it occurs in various liturgies. He held this view his whole life. Regarding Mary as “Queen of Heaven,” Luther used this title to describe her his whole life, but warned against excessive use as it may distract from Christ. When it comes to her as mediatrix, Luther held this view during his pre-Reformation career and gradually pulled away from it though he continued to affirm that Mary (along with all saints) live on and pray for us. His view of the Assumption is essentially the same, that she lives on with the Lord, but like so many pointed out that there are no writings about her assumption in Scripture." Dormition of St. Mary, Mother of God « In the Shadow of Leaves
"And when the Lutheran Church puts into the calendar a day to commemorate the Mother of God, it is not in the spirit of Rome or of the East – a glorification of Mary that pushes beyond the bounds of Scripture, announcing the dogma of her bodily assumption into heaven and her enthronement at the right hand of her Son and her taking her place there to manage your prayer requests. Um, no.
As to whether or not Mary was bodily taken to heaven, we have to confess our ignorance. We don’t know. Scripture doesn’t tell us. Might be – we grant that that would be rather like her Son to do such a thing. But if He wanted us to know about raising his Mother from the dead, He’d have seen fit to have His apostles write it for us in the Sacred Scriptures. Alas, not a word. So as Lutherans, we’re content to confess: He has taken her to be with Him and that is all we need to know. That’s how Dr. Luther wisely dispatched that question. Not our business". Weedon's Blog: Homily for St. Mary, Mother of Our Lord (2010) YouTube - willcweedon's Channel
"Today is, on the Church’s calendar, the Feast of St. Mary, the Mother of our Lord. Today is not the Feast of the Annunciation, when the angel Gabriel preached that the Christ was being conceived in her womb. Today is also not—despite the Gospel selection—the Feast of the Visitation, when Mary visited Elizabeth. Rather, today is the day the Church commemorates her death. In the East, it is known as the Dormition of Mary, or her “Falling Asleep.” Most saints’ days, in fact, are on the purported day of their death. And Mary did, most certainly, go the way of all flesh. She, like you, was a sinner. But she, like you was a saint, one of the baptized, in many ways the first believer in the fulfillment of the Promise." Feast of St. Mary, Mother of our Lord - Resurrection Evangelical Lutheran Church (LCMS)
These are all quotes from Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastors; most taken from their sermons on the Feast of St Mary, Mother of our Lord, that was 3 Sundays ago. As you can see there is a variety of opinions on Mary with the consensus that we do not exactly know if Mary was bodily assumed into heaven as Luther taught because we know very little about the after life. It is personal piety.
I'm going to spell this out to you. I am 49. My father was an assistant minister in the Lutheran church. He was also the Superintendent to the Sunday School. Both of my parents were Sunday School teachers. Now that my father is retired he is a chaplain at a nursing home. I was born and raised in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. I was confirmed May 18, 1972 in the same church that had now switched to ELCA. Half of my family has since left that church and remains Missouri Synod.
You are very condescending, by the way. I lived and breathed that church for most of my life and I can tell that you have limited knowledge. It sounds like you may want to be Roman Catholic. There are more to their differences than what you laid out. However, I am not going to get into with it with you. It is no longer my religion. And I don't think it really matters what you believe or what you think Lutherans believe.
I find it funny though that you are getting so defensive. I wonder why? You might want to ask yourself that question.
On a lighter note, my mother is such a poster child for Lutheranism that she had only one child, me, and managed to have me on the Martin Luther's birthday. The will of that woman!
I was raised around Catholicism. I lived in the northeast. But I also attended Catholic high school (much to my mother's chagrin!) and lived with a religious order for awhile, so I deeply understand the religion.
It sounds like you might want to become Roman Catholic. You should look into it.
I'm going to spell this out to you. I am 49. My father was an assistant minister in the Lutheran church. He was also the Superintendent to the Sunday School. Both of my parents were Sunday School teachers. Now that my father is retired he is a chaplain at a nursing home. I was born and raised in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. I was confirmed May 18, 1972 in the same church that had now switched to ELCA. Half of my family has since left that church and remains Missouri Synod.
You are very condescending, by the way. I lived and breathed that church for most of my life and I can tell that you have limited knowledge. It sounds like you may want to be Roman Catholic. There are more to their differences than what you laid out. However, I am not going to get into with it with you. It is no longer my religion. And I don't think it really matters what you believe or what you think Lutherans believe.
I find it funny though that you are getting so defensive. I wonder why? You might want to ask yourself that question.
On a lighter note, my mother is such a poster child for Lutheranism that she had only one child, me, and managed to have me on the Martin Luther's birthday. The will of that woman!
Here's what you wrote that provoked my response:
Quote:
Aye, yi, yi!
Just because someone recently converted, or better yet, went to their girlfriend's Lutheran church, it doesn't make you an expert on Lutheran Marianology. I was born into and raised in the Lutheran faith and I am 49. I may be an atheist now but I know what Lutherans believe.
I cited documentation, Lutheran confessions, writing from Martin Luther and segments of sermons from Lutheran pastors [all of which are LCMS]. So you can express opinion but unless you are willing to show what I have cited is
Quote:
"Missouri Synod and Wisconsin would NEVER do such a thing"
then you are incorrect. Having experience in a certain parish or church body that you do not belong to anymore doesn't mean you can speak definitively about Lutheranism. Californio Sur posted photos of Lutheran churches both in Europe and America of statues, icons to Mary. All the Lutheran church calendars celebrate several festivals to Mary. Just because you personally did not participate in these events doesn't mean all Lutherans share your point of view.
I don't want to sound defensive, as you suggest, but you stated things that I asserted were wrong. I'm just supporting my statements with factual information.
Yes, Californio Sur, we can get along. Sorry if I over reacted.
On a lighter note, my mother is such a poster child for Lutheranism that she had only one child, me, and managed to have me on the Martin Luther's birthday. The will of that woman!
You poor thing... I'm sorry...your mom strikes me as having an "iron will" which could be a good thing...
I've had Catholics tell me that they are NOT praying to her, but asking her to pray for them. They have compared what they are asking her to do with asking a living friend or relative to pray for them. Maybe a Catholic can clear this up, but it seems to me that it would be impossible for anyone to communicate with anyone "on the other side" except by something that I could only describe as prayer. If I were to ask a living person to pray for me, I would have to do so either face to face, on the phone, by e-mail, etc. That person would have to respond in one of these ways. We could not just have some kind of a spirit-to-spirit dialogue. So, I guess I'm just confused as to how one asks a deceased person to pray for him without addressing that individual through prayer. It does seem to be a fine line.
You asked for a response here, but I'm not really sure how I can answer. You seem to be saying those in Heaven can't hear the living. I'm not sure why that would have to be, but if that's the premise you're going with there probably is no answer I can give.
There are things in the Psalms and elsewhere that pretty much say the angels can see and hear us. I don't think you're denying that, but saying the humans who died and went to Heaven do not have that ability. That they are just completely sealed off. That the divide for them is opaque on both sides.
Still the saint prayers are prayers in their way, but they aren't intended to imply that you are praying to saint as if the saint has a power of their own. It's more like when people asked the Apostles to heal them. Although I admit some do maybe think it's the saint doing them.
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Why do I have a feeling I've heard this woe before...
