Is it wrong to honor the Virgin Mary? (church, beliefs, scriptures)

[SC122]

Mary is given a Saintly status,and as such,it is ok to pray for her intercession;ie-she pleades your case on your behalf.personally I see nothing wrong with it.
btw the Saints have incorruptible bodies,or,it is a qualification,rather.

[Enow]

Originally Posted by shrimpboat

I can't adequately speak for the Roman Catholic church but those denominations that branch off the Catholic church [Anglicans, Lutherans & Orthodox] don't reject the early Church.

The RCC is not the early Church. The early Church are the ones in the Paul's epistles. Anything that states as extra or differentiates from the letters to the early churches is plainly not of the early Church.

I think the difference with many Protestants is that they don't see themselves as Christians having anything in common with all the centuries of the Church. Luther did not reject anything related to the Church if it was not contrary to the Bible. So tradition was accepted as a valid expression of the Christian faith.

For all the emphasis that the RCC has on their traditions: there is no such emphasis in any of the letters to the early Church. Luther did not do all of the proper pruning when seperating from the RCC.

And the Virgin Mary was honored by very early Christians; they named their churches for her, had mosaics and statues prominently displayed of Mary and as the ecumenical creeds were formulated by the church councils they addressed Mary. Lutherans accept and profess all the ancient creeds of the Church [Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian creeds] that clearly state that Christ was born of a Virgin.

Here's a reproof for all things ecumenical:

Matthew 7: 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

This is the fact of the RCC: they are offering more doors for believers to go to and it is not just to Jesus Christ. They are offering the doors of the RCC as the means to obtain salvation within. They are offering other doors for the forgiveness of sins by the confessional booths: They are offering other doors to pray to besides the ONLY Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus with offes of doors to Mary, the departed saints, and even to the Holy Spirit, but we have His words saying there is no other door and no mediator between us and Jesus.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.... 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:

John 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

And yet by asking someone else, the credit and glory of answered prayers are being given to someone else. None pray to even Mary in His name: if you look at any of these other prayers, His name is not in closing at all. And even if they included it after the fact, they are still giving credit and glory for that answered prayer to someone else: Thus the thief.

The price of not listening to His words is found here:

Matthew 7: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So are we going to listen to a smooth, double talking RCC or Jesus Christ?

The Apostles creed states: "He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary". The Nicene creed: "who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man." Both creeds state that Mary stayed a "virgin" and these statements of the Christian faith were written in the first centuries of the Church [before 400 AD].

This is evidence of why everything ecumenical should be circumspect. That little leaven leavens into a whole lump that is the RCC.

Errors In the Nicene Creed

By including the Holy Spirit to be worshipped with the Father and the Son is the broadening of the Way in approaching God the Father as Jesus is the only way to the Father and that is the iniquity if one sought God not by way of the Son by Whom He will say, I know ye not because of iniquity.

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

The early Church also put together the books of the Bible, specifically the New Testament.

Yes. The early church did: not the RCC. All that the RCC did was kept trying to keep the Word of God out of the hands of the public. Failing that, They began to produce other translations of the Bible from circumspectual manuscripts, coming from the area of Alexandria where poetic licensing has been known to have taen place. The early Church... the real early Church did collect books and upkept them at Antioch where the disciples met regularly as evident even in the scriptures where they kept His words and upkept them for they loved Him. The oldest manuscripts cannot be the best manuscripts if those caretakers did not use them enough that they needed upkeep.

The History of the Keeping of His Words

Enow, are you rejecting the early Christian church and are you suggesting that all the centuries of the Church right up to the Reformation in the 1500's are not the "real" teachings of the faith?

Matthew 13:25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This is why God addressed each of the seven churches in Revelation to get ready or else be left behind for the great tribulation.

On another thread someone posted how Martin Luther and the Lutheran confessions not only refer to Mary as the "blessed Virgin" but also as the "ever Virgin" since they understand the Bible as using the term "brothers or sisters" of Jesus as meaning his cousins and not the offspring of Mary and Joseph. In fact Luther believed that Mary was conceived without sin; that both Christ and Mary were immaculate conceptions. Luther also believed that Mary was assumed into heaven when she died and 3 Sundays ago the Lutheran church celebrated St Mary's death.

Reinterating again but more simply: nobody is perfect. Luther was not done pruning the tares from the RCC.

The Bible states clearly that they were not cousins. Brothers and sisters means just that. Do they not have a word for cousin? Yes.

Luke 1:36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luke 1:56And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.

So do you now see the rationalization of the RCC?

Don't forget the fact that marriage as defined by God means that the two shall be come one flesh, and that knowing someone is by sexual intimacy.

Matthew 1: 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

We accept Mary as the most holy woman since she is the Mother of God and as the Lutheran confessions refer to her as the "Spiritual Mother" and "Queen of Heaven" who prays for the church. We do not recite the Hail Mary though Luther did but we do accept that the virgin Mary has a prominent role in heaven and prays for all who follow her son, Jesus.

Do you really think Mary would want to be honoured as the Queen of Heaven when by title alone would be an affront to her? Who would want to be referred to some "pagan goddess"?

Jeremiah 7:18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

These beliefs are consistent with the earliest teachings of the Christian faith.

No. They are not. These be the earliest teaching of the RCC: not the early churches.

And Lutherans are joined by other Christian denominations that accept the creeds of the church: Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. I left the Baptist church and now accept that the Christian faith is more than just the Bible but also that the holy spirit guides the church, that Christ instituted holy sacraments where forgiveness of sins is provided and that Christians are part of the "communion of saints" on earth and in heaven. And Mary is the most worthy of praise since she bore Jesus.

Like Luther, you need to take pause and go to Jesus for more discernment to reprove the works of darkness by the scriptures.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by shrimpboat

I find it odd that someone who claims to dislike Lutherans thinks they know Lutheran theology or how Mary is viewed in Lutheran churches. I don't have to qualify my Lutheran credentials but I joined over 30 years ago, an am a Eucharistic minister at my parish [I help distribute communion at church and take the sacrament to the sick in hospitals\ nursing homes in case you are unfamilair with the practice].


These are all quotes from Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastors; most taken from their sermons on the Feast of St Mary, Mother of our Lord, that was 3 Sundays ago. As you can see there is a variety of opinions on Mary with the consensus that we do not exactly know if Mary was bodily assumed into heaven as Luther taught because we know very little about the after life. It is personal piety.

hiknapster does have a valid point; to broad brush all Lutheran church bodies [synods] would not be accurate.

Myself being WELS for over 50 years and a family history of WELS\Missouri over 110 years can say that there is a definate broad brush of Lutheran view of Mary from the Wikpedia link.

The WELS and our confessional sister synod ELS do not; Missouri Lutheran [with maybe a few exceptions like those sermons] do not share most of the views of Mary that supposedly is being attributed especially from Wikpedia.

Readers should understand that:

• ELCA is currently in terrible shape confessionally. All about that is left of "Lutheran" in current ELCA is in the name, which by all forecasts, by years end the conservative side will be leaving to form a new church synod or many will leave to join exisiting Lutheran church bodies.
• The Missouri Lutheran is currently a divided church confessionally (though it appears MLS is starting to go back to it original confessional beliefs)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

You asked for a response here, but I'm not really sure how I can answer. You seem to be saying those in Heaven can't hear the living. I'm not sure why that would have to be, but if that's the premise you're going with there probably is no answer I can give.

There are things in the Psalms and elsewhere that pretty much say the angels can see and hear us. I don't think you're denying that, but saying the humans who died and went to Heaven do not have that ability. That they are just completely sealed off. That the divide for them is opaque on both sides.

Still the saint prayers are prayers in their way, but they aren't intended to imply that you are praying to saint as if the saint has a power of their own. It's more like when people asked the Apostles to heal them. Although I admit some do maybe think it's the saint doing them.

Thanks for your answer, Thomas. You're right that I have been assuming all along that human who have died do not have the ability to hear us. Of course, I can't prove that, and I could be wrong. If you're right, and they can hear us, I see nothing wrong with asking them to pray for us. But that raises two more questions:

1. Would such a request have to be uttered vocally?
2. Why would it be necessary to pray only to Mary or to the Saints? Could you ask your own deceased parents to pray for you with the same result?

[californio sur]

As a Roman Catholic, I have a place for Mary in my heart. She took care of Jesus as any mother would do; she stood under the cross when Jesus was crucified and was with the other apostles when Christ rose to heaven. But aside from the honor and praise rightly given to Mary, I do not pray to her. The Hail Mary is never said during Mass. It is a private devotion merely asking for her to pray for all Christians. Seems harmless and hardly worth getting into arguments over.

[hiknapster]

THANK YOU.

I don't care what Wikipedia says. I've been notified by other Lutherans regarding those posts, too. I think because one person converts and goes to one church and then looks up some things on the internet they think they have a great knowledge of the church, when they do not.

First, Lutherans do not pray to icons. Just because they have carvings and paintings, they are not praying to them.

I have to laugh about the photos. Did you people think I worshipped in a barn? Never assume.

On August 15 my mother worshipped at Zion Lutheran Church in Massachusetts, where she has worshipped for 76 years. No one mentioned Mary. Not once. And it is ELCA.

I think that there were some assumptions made about me - explaining what an eucharistic minister is really took the cake - and now there is egg all over one's face. Never assume anything about anyone.

The Roman Catholics and the ELCA (never Missouri Synod and WELS) were becoming closer to at least an understanding, but when the ELCA decided to allow openly gay pastors in, the whole thing was lost.

I don't think you can really understand the background unless you have been there. My grandparents were a living example. My grandmother was German Lutheran and was tricked by my grandfather into marrying him. It was in the 1920s and he told her he was Lutheran. After the marriage she found out that he was Roman Catholic. They lived in animosity almost until the day he died.

I remember when they got rid of the Lutheran Hymnal in my church and my aunt stood up and said she would never say "catholic church" and my father standing up and saying that catholic means universal and they were not saying "Roman Catholic." Half of my family left after that and there always was that rift.

There is more to it than you realize, shrimp boat. Try getting communion at a Roman Catholic church. Or a Missouri Synod church, for that matter. Don't lie. Tell them who you are. See how that goes.

And do you know why?

Do you know what transubstantiation is? I noticed that was glaringly left out of your laundry list of differences between Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

You don't seem to understand as much as you think you do.

Roman Catholicism is a beautiful religion. I think you may be yearning for it. You need to look into these matters more closely.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

hiknapster does have a valid point; to broad brush all Lutheran church bodies [synods] would not be accurate.

Myself being WELS for over 50 years and a family history of WELS\Missouri over 110 years can say that there is a definate broad brush of Lutheran view of Mary from the Wikpedia link.

The WELS and our confessional sister synod ELS do not; Missouri Lutheran [with maybe a few exceptions like those sermons] do not share most of the views of Mary that supposedly is being attributed especially from Wikpedia.

Readers should understand that:

• ELCA is currently in terrible shape confessionally. All about that is left of "Lutheran" in current ELCA is in the name, which by all forecasts, by years end the conservative side will be leaving to form a new church synod or many will leave to join exisiting Lutheran church bodies.
• The Missouri Lutheran is currently a divided church confessionally (though it appears MLS is starting to go back to it original confessional beliefs)

[hiknapster]

I've been thinking about this some more. I guess everything hinges on your background and perspective. You had no way of knowing I was so immersed in the Roman Catholic and Lutheran religions.

The Roman Catholic guy assumed Lutherans were about the same by attending a few services and on the face of it, we sure look it, especially ELCA and Roman Catholics.

But shrimpboat has a Baptist and Lutheran background so how was he to know the differences, either? Lutherans look like Roman Catholics to him.

The moral of the story is never make assumptions. You never know what you really know or don't know and who someone else is. You might start by traveling around to other Lutheran churches. I have been to oh, so many. That could give you a better understanding. Talk to the pastors and then talk to some priests. Talk to the nuns for a very enlightening view!

I once almost converted to Roman Catholicism. I was half-way through the classes. That will give a very detailed list of differences.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by shyspider

Likewise, I'd like to hear Shrimpboat's response to my question in post #21. Given the sound of his/her words in support of Catholicism, I can't help but wonder why he/she is still Lutheran.

You seem to think that a requirement for being a good Protestant is that one despise Catholicism.

I have some news for you -- not all Protestants think the Catholic Church is the "***** of Babylon" or somesuch; some Protestants actually respect Catholicism on its own terms whilst not wishing to become Catholic themselves.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

Reverence of Mary is in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy as it is in councils up to final Nicaea.

"(15) If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, let him be anathema." Final Nicaea

Also in the Bible

Luke 1:46-55
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."

Although I think it is generally true Jesus wanted to focus more on the "family of believers" rather than one's biological family.

To add to Thomas's thoughts:

Mary says that her soul "magnifies the Lord." A magnifying glass is something you look through at something else -- in this case, Jesus. Mary is the magnifier but she is not the object -- Jesus is. She brings us closer to Jesus, not further away from Him. We know from the gospels that He listens to her -- He performed His first miracle at her behest -- "Do whatever He says," she tells us.

Jesus had friends, he had an aunt, he had a cousin, he had a stepfather, he had a mother. He was fully human. Morevoer, as Californio Sur points out she was present at the most crucial events in His life. By severing Jesus from His earthly family (including His beloved mother) much of Protestant theology goes askew in cutting us off from the fact that Jesus was both True God AND True Man.

I agree with you Thomas though that the "family of believers" (communion of saints) is/was paramount.

[shyspider]

Originally Posted by shrimpboat

Hey, if you only knew how far I have come in my journey of faith. Raised in a strict Baptist home, I married a Lutheran woman and joined her church. Our boys were baptized as infants, have taken their first communions and confirmations in the Lutheran church. My parents and sibs remain active Baptists but worship with us when visiting. It still is a bit of a struggle since my dad in particular is not very comfortable in a Lutheran church; he doesn't like the ceremony, kneeling, sign of the cross and when incense is used at Christmas he prefers to step outside for a while.

But to answer your question, I feel that I am a "catholic" but not a Roman Catholic. Some Christians: mostly Orthodox, Episcopalians, Lutherans worship like Roman Catholics and share most of the same views on the faith. I do not believe that the pope is infallible just like the other Christians in the world. The Pope holds a revered position but is viewed as equal to other bishops in my opinion and that is the official position of the Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran churches. There are some other issues but they are minor such as forced celibacy, not allowing female priests, and purgatory.

It seems you accept the authority of the RCC about certain teachings inasmuch as they line up with what you believe in yourself, but disregard the RCC authority when it comes to teaching things you don't agree with.

So, then, if you disagree with some positions of the RCC and its teachings, how is it you can be critical of other Protestants who don't accept the validity of certain Catholic, or even Lutheran, teachings with respect to, among other things, Mary and asking dead saints to pray for us?