The One Verse That Appears to Debunk Universal Redemption (Israel, confess, faith)

[legoman]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

God's righteous judgements are just. Those who despise God's judgements as being just have a problem with hell ..... you should be asking this of yourself.

Yes praise God that God's righteous judgments are just! Thankfully they have nothing to do with endless torments of a mythical hell - that is man's invention.

You should be asking yourself why you aren't rejoicing over the all the people burning in hell right now if you think that is what God's justice really is.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Actually there is no solid gaurantee for anything. Your as likely to get the big anilhillatory judgment as anyone and saying you won't means nothing. So if there is absolutely no hope that God is going to save each and every one of us, you have nothing that gaurantees your safety, only talk.

Annihilation (total destruction) of the soul of the wicked is one of the few guarantees in the Bible, Phazelwood, as exemplified by the following scriptures, and these are just a few. There are more:

Annihilation:

though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever.
.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases (dead bodies) of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

(dead bodies burning for all eternity--undying worms crawling through the charred remains)

The soul who sins shall die

rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed

“…as the tongue of fire devours the stubble,
and as dry grass sinks down in the flame,
so their root will become rotten,
and their blossom go up like dust,
for they have rejected the instruction of the Lord of hosts…”

the wicked will perish

They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be found“

[HalfNelson]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

From a scriptural view point, that probably would be the core issue of UR " despise(ing) God's judgments and wish they weren't so? " and why I oppose it ..... which is why UR is considered a Satanic lie. Satan despises God's judgement against him.

Very astute observation! I would certainly have to agree.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

I've been studying ET, Annihilationism, and UR for awhile now and lately have been pondering in depth Matthew 7:21-23



This one verse convinces me beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal Redemption is NOT a valid belief. This one verse, being the EXACT words of our Lord, Jesus overrides anything UR'ers can use from Paul and/or any other author of the Bible outside the four Gospels, because Jesus' words take precedent over anything a mortal man can say.

Notice that Jesus makes plain His verdict is final. There is no conditional circumstances that reverses its decree---nothing like, "Depart from Me until you serve a term in the Lake of Fire and learn My truths--only then will you be admitted into heaven."

Note the plain language, "Not everyone will enter heaven." And "I never knew you. Depart." Does it say, "Depart, until.... "? Or "Depart for an aionion and then you will be admitted." or any similar pronouncements? I see nothing in Jesus' words that even remotely suggests there are conditions to be met and then His decision will be reversed. In such a weighty declaration as this, if there were any, Jesus certainly wouldn't have hesitated to add them to let His listeners know that there was a way to escape such a devastating condemnation.

No, my friends, Jesus' decision is final. Once you are refused entrance into heaven it is for all eternity. No second chances as Universalists claim.

But eternal torment is also not an option because of the use of words like "perish", "destroyed" "die" "destruction", etc. These words leave no doubt that the soul, which is not immortal, is destroyed by God once final judgement is passed by Jesus or God at the end time. This leaves only annihilation as the logical punishment for souls that die in their sin.

I'm a universalist. Now let's analyze:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

No question here. Nobody can enter the Heaven except those that do the will of the Father in Heaven. Notice here there is no talk that there will ALWAYS be someone that doesn't do the will of the Father.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

No question in that day of judgement that there will be those that thought they did do the will of the Father only to find out otherwise. Nothing else here to suggest that there will be some forever cast out.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here is just shows that those that don't do the will of the Father (based on the preceding verses) are cast out. But it doesn't mean they are cast out if they suddenly are brought to do the Father's will. It only means they are cast out while not doing the Father's will.

So that was easy. And nothing I said is refutable from scripture.

[HalfNelson]

Originally Posted by legoman

Yes praise God that God's righteous judgments are just! Thankfully they have nothing to do with endless torments of a mythical hell - that is man's invention.

You should be asking yourself why you aren't rejoicing over the all the people burning in hell right now if you think that is what God's justice really is.

Hell is by no means mythical. Hell is standing in the presence of God without letting go of sin. Hell is temporary, in terms of it being a place of torment (the word hell in the bible sometimes means simply the grave/death). IF we have not allowed God to free us of our guilt, it will crush out our life while in His presence. There is no body burning in Hell right now. No human being can exist, without a physical body. Every human being who has ever lived is only in one of two places, either six feet under the ground or, for those that have experienced resurrection or never tasted death (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, etc....), in Heaven. Those that are in Heaven are not there as disembodied souls, they are there with physical bodies, just as Christ had a physical body that Thomas could touch. The idea that man can maintain an existence absent a physical body, is an idea born out of Eden when Satan tried to tell Eve that God was a liar. God said that sin leads to death, but ever since then Satan has been successfully convincing man that sin never leads to death, only to an altered form of existence. God created Adam and Eve perfect in Eden, with physical bodies. That should be a clear indication that physical bodies are part of God's view of perfection.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by legoman

Still waiting for your thoughts on this:


We must follow His commands. If we do not love then we do not have eonian life (what you call eternal life). That is we do not know God - because God is love, and we are not practicing love.

So you had better be careful if you slip up and hate someone a little bit should we assume you have lost eternal life and are destined for eternal hell?

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Finn, thrillobyte - do you believe you have lost your eternal life if you hate someone (even just a tiny bit)? According to your understanding, that is what 1 John 3:15 says.

Originally Posted by pcamps

When Jesus said anything resembling IF he knew full well we couldn't live up to it. Was he playing games or trying to deceive us ? of cause not, it was said for one reason only and that was so the IF would find us out. Peter told Jesus he would die for him and never fall away and deny him

Even when Jesus said "If your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribe and pharisee, you will not enter into the kingdom , he is saying the same thing here too, i know my righteousness could never exceed that of the scribe and pharisee, it found me out, and then he opened my eyes and revealed he is my righteousness.

Unless I am greatly misunderstanding these questions, it appears to me that lego and pcamps are asking if I truly expect to live up to the righteousness that Jesus seemed to demand of me.

I think we get onto a slippery slope when we ask this kind of a question because the natural tendency is to think that we cannot possibly exceed the righteousness of the scribes & Pharisees so why try. I don't think Jesus is asking us to exceed their righteousness just to make the point that we cannot possibly do it. That would be much like what Paul was saying about keeping the Law---that the Law was designed to show us that we cannot possibly keep it to the letter. That is true---we cannot keep it to the letter. But the purpose of the Law was to demonstrate just how badly we needed a Saviour to take the penalty for sin we would inevitably commit by not keeping it.

I think many Christians---and I'm not applying this to lego or pcamps-----get the idea that just because they think they cannot possibly be totally obedient it then gives them license to just sin without really trying not to ("Oh, there's no possible way for me to keep the Ten Commandments so why bother to try---Jesus doesn't expect me to anyway---He only said don't sin because He knew we were going to sin and His saying that was to demonstrate how badly we need His forgiveness") I truly believe many Christians use this as a copout to justify their sinful lifestyle.

But when Jesus told Mary, "Go and sin no more" and when He said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect" He wasn't just talking to hear Himself talk. He truly expected us to not go out and sin like the scribes and Pharisees and that literally if our righteousness did not exceed their level then we were in danger of hellfire just as they were.

I am reminded of John 5:14 where Jesus warned the invalid who had been healed, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a greater evil befall you." Jesus wasn't fooling around---he wasn't telling he man, "Look, I know you can't live a perfect life so don't try".

No, He was giving the man a stern warning to stop living a lifestyle of sin---He didn't say, "Don't sin", He basically was sayinyg, "Don't fall into a pattern of sinful lifestyle or your life is going to become a living hell."

In short, Jesus expects us to be as nearly perfect as we are humanly capable of with the utmost effort on our part and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I'm rambling, but I think I've gotten my point across, albeit not too gracefully.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by HalfNelson

Hell is by no means mythical. Hell is standing in the presence of God without letting go of sin. Hell is temporary, in terms of it being a place of torment (the word hell in the bible sometimes means simply the grave/death). IF we have not allowed God to free us of our guilt, it will crush out our life while in His presence. There is no body burning in Hell right now. No human being can exist, without a physical body. Every human being who has ever lived is only in one of two places, either six feet under the ground or, for those that have experienced resurrection or never tasted death (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, etc....), in Heaven. Those that are in Heaven are not there as disembodied souls, they are there with physical bodies, just as Christ had a physical body that Thomas could touch. The idea that man can maintain an existence absent a physical body, is an idea born out of Eden when Satan tried to tell Eve that God was a liar. God said that sin leads to death, but ever since then Satan has been successfully convincing man that sin never leads to death, only to an altered form of existence. God created Adam and Eve perfect in Eden, with physical bodies. That should be a clear indication that physical bodies are part of God's view of perfection.

If I choose to sin, then am I really a slave to sin. Are slaves really a slave because they choose to be?

[pcamps]

What i am saying Thrill is we are bankrupt and void of anything within ourselves(the old man) to come anywhere near what God requires of us whether that be by the law or by the teachings of Jesus and this includes all the IFS you refer to, and only when we come into the understanding of this, will we be able to live our lives by His righteousness.So what i am saying in a nutshell is give up and surrender, it's humbling but also liberating at the same time, you will also become a far more gracious,loving,merciful and forgiving person to believer and unbeliever too, in the knowledge that he freely bailed you out of bankruptcy.

[twin.spin]

sorry for the length

Originally Posted by pcamps

Twin just for arguments sake , let's say free will and choice is correct .

Ok, lets .... for arguments sake, let's say free will and choice is correct .

Originally Posted by pcamps

Could you tell me how long it took you to decide ok Jesus i will take your offer of freely wiping out that massive debt that i owe and was never going to be able to pay, even if i lived as long as one of boys who lived to be 400,500,600 years of age recorded in Genesis ?,

I thought you were refering to the scriptural teachings that God does the chosing and we have a free will to reject.


About choice:

• Romans 8:33
  Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
• Ephesians 1:4
  For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
• Matthew 22:14
  “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

About free will: I'll list two versions of some verses, see if you can detect which one is accurated of Jesus' words

John 3:15
that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” correct

• John 3:15
  that everyone will have eternal life in him.”

or ===================================


John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

• John 6:40
  For my Father’s will is that everyone shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

or =========================================
Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

• Acts 13:39
  Through him everyone is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
  

Originally Posted by pcamps

did Jesus have to chase you around trying to convince you ?, or did he show you the balance due has zero, and you believed right there and then because it was a no brainer?.

Yes and no.

Originally Posted by pcamps

What won you over ?

1. what he did in wiping out that massive debt for you? or
2. because you believed he wiped out that massive debt ?

What won me over was God's grace ...........and for adults yes to both.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, .....( what he did in wiping out that massive debt )

....that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (because you believed he wiped out that massive debt )

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by legoman

Yes praise God that God's righteous judgments are just! Thankfully they have nothing to do with endless torments of a mythical hell - that is man's invention.

Or if you care to believe in the one who says otherwise (Jesus) the mythical hell argument is man's invention.

Originally Posted by legoman

You should be asking yourself why you aren't rejoicing over the all the people burning in hell right now if you think that is what God's justice really is.

That is why God pleads for people to repent ... sinners who don't repent die. (and yes that's eternally)

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

Hebrews 10:38
And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”