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Dear Campbell,
Even if you say it is said during the Great White Throne (which is isn't but let's just for the sake or argument say your take is correct) that those who say "Lord, Lord" to Jesus will not enter the kingdom of the heavens, that kingdom is still on the earth after the great white throne. The New City Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth (Rev.21:10). So during that age they will not be allowed into the kingdom of the heavens He is setting up on the new earth.
It does not say they never go to heaven.
You are in fact accusing God of teaching heresy when you say it is heresy to teach that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all and teach that "God is the Saviour of all mankind . . . these things command and teach" (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11).
You can't say God tells us in those verses we are to teach that "God will not save all mankind because Christ ransomed all" or teach that "God is not the Saviour of all mankind."
A Saviour is One Who saves, not just offers salvation.
Just the fact that you say "not all will be saved" you are in fact accusing God of telling us to teach heresy.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10 does not say "God will save all mankind only if they make the right choice" or that "God is the Saviour of all mankind as long as all mankind make the right choice.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 does tell us that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind. It is based upon what Christ did, not what man chooses.
Jesus Christ the Saviour will save us only if we (BELIEVE IN HIM). John 3:16 For God so love the world that He gave us His only Son, that whosoever (BELIEVES IN HIM) will have eternal life.
Again, 1 Tim. 2:4 Reads, Who (will have all men to be saved.)
Most Bibles do not read this way. And for good reason. Because the actual and correct translation is (DESIRE OR WANTS) all men to be saved.
John 3:16 tells us that (ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM) will be saved and have (ETERNAL LIFE). And since most of the world does not believe in him. It is a hersey to suggest all will be saved.
Trying to hang your belief on a verse that is pulled out of context will not enable you to ignore the rest of the Scriptures.
As an outsider - here is the way I see it. It doesn't matter. Really, you can believe whatever the heck you want to. Here's the thing - both Universalists and ET'ers believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. They both believe in the Bible and all the other Christian stuff. The thing that they disagree with is what will happen to the rest of us non-Christians. Moderator cut: deleteIt seems that the main argument stems from what kind of news one is spreading - "good" news or fear. The universalists are concerned that the ET'ers are scaring people away from Jesus and the ET'ers are concerned that the universalists are letting us heathens and non-Christians believe that we have a free pass so we can feel free to sin all we want.
The thing is - none of this really matters to us that don't believe. It really doesn't. Moderator cut: delete And no matter what happens after this life (which quite honestly, I just believe is a final death - a nice, long, well deserved rest for my soul) - I have no desire to be a bad person. The consequences I'm concerned about are the ones that my actions have right here on this earth. If I make someone feel bad - I feel bad. If I make someone feel good - I feel good. I have absolutely no desire to cause anyone mental or physical harm. I love my husband and have absolutely no desire to cheat on him. I have no desire to steal, cheat, or lie. I do have a desire to laugh and cuddle and surround myself with love.
So I think both sides can stop worrying about what kind of news the other side is spreading. Those that need religion will find religion regardless of what kind of news they are told. If the ET'ers scare them - perhaps they will find universalism. Those that need more structure and guidance might be more inclined to find fundamentalism. People find and follow what makes sense to them.
So stop all the fussing and just try to accept others for who they are already!!! It doesn't matter who is right - because the fact of the matter is that nobody knows. You can quote the Bible all day long - but it doesn't change the fact that we really don't know for sure. If there is a God - let him speak for himself and quit trying to speak for him!
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-04-2011 at 09:01 PM..
Reason: Had to delete the hell out of it because of the sticky :)
As an outsider - here is the way I see it. It doesn't matter. Really, you can believe whatever the heck you want to. Here's the thing - both Universalists and ET'ers believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. They both believe in the Bible and all the other Christian stuff. The thing that they disagree with is what will happen to the rest of us non-Christians.Moderator cut: delete Both sides, however, believe that they themselves will be going to Heaven and be with God. It seems that the main argument stems from what kind of news one is spreading - "good" news or fear. The universalists are concerned that the ET'ers are scaring people away from Jesus and the ET'ers are concerned that the universalists are letting us heathens and non-Christians believe that we have a free pass so we can feel free to sin all we want.
The thing is - none of this really matters to us that don't believe. It really doesn't. Moderator cut: delete The thought that I will be going to Heaven no matter what I believe doesn't mean much to me either - because I don't believe in Heaven either. And no matter what happens after this life (which quite honestly, I just believe is a final death - a nice, long, well deserved rest for my soul) - I have no desire to be a bad person. The consequences I'm concerned about are the ones that my actions have right here on this earth. If I make someone feel bad - I feel bad. If I make someone feel good - I feel good. I have absolutely no desire to cause anyone mental or physical harm. I love my husband and have absolutely no desire to cheat on him. I have no desire to steal, cheat, or lie. I do have a desire to laugh and cuddle and surround myself with love.
So I think both sides can stop worrying about what kind of news the other side is spreading. Those that need religion will find religion regardless of what kind of news they are told. If the ET'ers scare them - perhaps they will find universalism. Those that need more structure and guidance might be more inclined to find fundamentalism. People find and follow what makes sense to them.
So stop all the fussing and just try to accept others for who they are already!!! It doesn't matter who is right - because the fact of the matter is that nobody knows. You can quote the Bible all day long - but it doesn't change the fact that we really don't know for sure. If there is a God - let him speak for himself and quit trying to speak for him!
I cannot rep you . . . but . IMO this post and your approach to life represent the very things that truly define a Christian . . . what is in our hearts. You clearly have accepted and responded to the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit (you "believe ON/INTO" Jesus) . . . even though you don't believe any such thing and think you are just being nice because you prefer it. Since I personally am certain (KNOW) such a source of inner guidance truly exists (for many reasons) . . . I am certain of what you probably see as my annoying claims about what is truly going on within your consciousness. But . . . your "fruits" speak for you and belie what your mind and mouth claim. The reverse situation is clearly evident in others in this forum. Once we lose the silly ideas that we can choose who we are and what we truly believe (not prefer or claim to believe) the major negatives associated with belief in God (virtually ALL of which emanate from religions) will disappear and your example will be how we ALL truly will want to live. At least . . . that is my hope.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-04-2011 at 09:04 PM..
I cannot rep you . . . but . IMO this post and your approach to life represent the very things that truly define a Christian . . . what is in our hearts. You clearly have accepted and responded to the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit (you "believe ON/INTO" Jesus) . . . even though you don't believe any such thing and think you are just being nice because you prefer it. Since I personally am certain (KNOW) such a source of inner guidance truly exists (for many reasons) . . . I am certain of what you probably see as my annoying claims about what is truly going on within your consciousness. But . . . your "fruits" speak for you and belie what your mind and mouth claim. The reverse situation is clearly evident in others in this forum. Once we lose the silly ideas that we can choose who we are and what we truly believe (not prefer or claim to believe) the major negatives associated with belief in God (virtually ALL of which emanate from religions) will disappear and your example will be how we ALL truly will want to live. At least . . . that is my hope.
The kingdom I am speaking of, which Jesus spoke of, was the one in which the 12 will physically sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel ON THE EARTH. That kingdom has not come yet. That is why I don't see it yet.
Where does it say that they will judge the 12 on EARTH?
If you attempting to interpret Matthew 19:28, how is it that you arrive at this conclusion?
No. I know you believe that he did - but in my opinion, no. In my opinion - if there is a God, and he wanted us to know everything, we would either be born knowing it - just like we are born knowing how to breathe and eat, or he would talk to us daily like on a huge loudspeaker or he would write messages to us across the sky. A book written around 2000 years ago that was supposedly divinely inpsired but written by men, to me, is not the same thing. So to me - these are the options that I see. 1)God does not exist. 2)God exists but he is nothing like the God most people envision - perhaps he is more of a deity or a consciousness or just a divine energy. 3)God exists but he doesn't want us to know everything. He wants us to learn and think and love and figure out our lives for ourselves - just like a good parent does.
Obviously, this is just my personal opinion. I'm perfectly okay with people disagreeing with me. Really makes no difference to me.
So to me - these are the options that I see. 1)God does not exist. 2)God exists but he is nothing like the God most people envision - perhaps he is more of a deity or a consciousness or just a divine energy. 3)God exists but he doesn't want us to know everything. He wants us to learn and think and love and figure out our lives for ourselves - just like a good parent does.
Obviously, this is just my personal opinion. I'm perfectly okay with people disagreeing with me. Really makes no difference to me.
To the bold:
preach it sister!
lol... sorry that popped into my head and it made me laugh. I had to say it.
seriously though.. option 3 is basically my view.
We're here for a reason. And stuff is being revealed and things are unfolding as they should. For all of us. We're seeing through the glass darkly for a reason. So we'll learn.
Like Dewdrop said.. "just like a good parent does."
It's a rough, crazy world.
For sure.
But it kind of has to be for the particular things we're here to learn.
Just my humble opinion.
Basically there have always been those who want to beleive that all will be saved. Nothing new here really.
It IS odd . . . the things that will resonate with people's souls . . . isn't it? Ever wonder why?
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