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If the Bible speaks about salvation after death, then you guys have failed to prove it. Do you really think Jesus came here among the living people to instruct us about something we are going to do AFTER DEATH? Does that make sense to you? Why would he instruct us to do anything, if salvation was an automatic after death experience? Would he tell the living people "believe in me" and "I am the door" and actually mean that everyone will be forced to believe after they die? That would be nonsense.
Loop-holes Brian, loop-holes....Don't rely on them.
PS Which preacher are you referring to? Who told me what, and when? What are you talking about?
(I also used to believe that all preachers were more interested in souls than their savings accounts. Unfortunately, many are not that way at all.)
As regarding salvation, Jesus came to bring good news and the message of reconciliation between man and God. He didn't come to bring "an offer you can't refuse." He's not a politician. He didn't come to make a proposal to mankind, but to SAVE mankind.
Again: I think we have a major difference in how we view who Jesus is and what He came to do. (and whether or not He succeeded)
It is you who is trying to build a meaning around this verse, but that meaning is a creation of your imagination. There is nothing to support it. The problem is that the Bible does NOT say ANYWHERE that people are saved after death. NOT ONE VERSE says such thing. You are taking this verse and insist that it talks about after death conversion process, but it simply does not say that. The Bible says that Jesus saves those who believe, and it says that you live once, you die once and then you are judged, and that the believing will be with the Lord while the unbelieving will be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. Period.
Never before have i claimed that Heb 9:27 says that people can be saved after they die.
That is just you twisting the argument and trying to pass the buck to me ... It is you who are reading something into that Passage that isn't there. I understand it to mean exactly what it says, that it is appointed unto humans to die once(though some have died twice, such as Lazarus), and after humans die they face judgment(but not necessarily after they die the first time, as Lazarus was not yet Judged when he was resurrected).
Again, that verse in no way says anything but that humans die (at least) one time and eventually face judgment after they die ... It says nothing about salvation at all.
Even on earth if a man is judged and condemned he can still be pardoned, so i don't see why it is so hard for fundies to grasp that just because a person is judged before they confess Christ that they could still come to know the truth of Christ by virtue of the judgments they receive; as we have said many times that is the very purpose of Gods judgment - the purpose of correction.
As far as verses that speak of salvation after death, i understand these verses to say just that ...
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
In the verse above we see the people who died for their rebellion in the deluge of Noah, those who were unjust for whom Christ also died as is proven by the fact that he went and preached to their imprisoned spirits.
And in the next chapter in connection with the above verse we read that ...
1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
If the gospel has already been preached once to the dead for salvation, then why could it not happen again at the consummation of the ages? I say in fact it will and then and only then will every knee bow and only then will all flesh perceive the salvation of God.
And I am not the first or only person who understands the above verses to mean exactly what they say ... Many people in the early church believed in this interpretation as well.
In fact the notion that people could be saved after death has been a part of Christian doctrine for thousands of years though it has been twisted. It is certainly nothing new even to the orthodoxy.
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That is what the Bible says, but you have built an alternate religion around few cherry picked Bible verses. Take one verse from one book and another from another book, and merge them together, twist and turn, and then insist they mean something you want them to mean. No, my friend, the Bible is crystal clear about salvation, and it says nothing about an after death conversion factories where people are converted whether they like it or not.
I have built nothing at all, what i believe was believed and taught by the majority of Christians in the first five centuries of the Common Era. In fact it is you and those who subscribe to contemporary traditional Christian fundamentalism that are the ones who have erected a false alternate religion.
Understanding and studying the bible topically is very important if one is to understand how precept relies on precept, and in order to build your hermeneutic with a solid scriptural foundation ... You should learn how to study that way, it will help you correct your erroneous indoctrination.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-31-2011 at 08:42 AM..
And I am not the first or only person who understands the above verses to mean exactly what they say ... Many people in the early church believed in this interpretation as well.
In fact the notion that people could be saved after death has been a part of Christian doctrine for thousands of years though it has been twisted. It is certainly nothing new even to the orthodoxy.
I have built nothing at all, what i believe was believed and taught by the majority of Christians in the first five centuries of the Common Era. In fact it is you and those who subscribe to contemporary traditional Christian fundamentalism that are the ones who have erected a false alternate religion.
Understanding and studying the bible topically is very important if one is to understand how precept relies on precept, and in order to build your hermeneutic with a solid scriptural foundation ... You should learn how to study that way, it will help you correct your erroneous indoctrination.
This is so important because it occurs without thought once the basic precept is in place . . . either a Jealous, vengeful, wrathful God demanding obedience . . . or a Loving accepting Father teaching us to mature spiritually. The OT evokes the Jealous God . . . the NT evokes the Loving Father. As long as people approach the bible with the precept that we are in an obedience trial . . . their interpretations and understanding of God will be wrong. When they approach the Bible with the precept that we are maturing children under the tutelage of a loving Father . . . their interpretations and understanding of God will be as Christ revealed so unambiguously.
(I also used to believe that all preachers were more interested in souls than their savings accounts. Unfortunately, many are not that way at all.)
It was naive of you to think false teaches did not exist, when the Bible specifically says they do. And now you seem to think they are all (or what is 'many'. earlier you said many=all) false teachers? I guess it's all or nothing for you. It is fairly easy to spot the fake ones.
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As regarding salvation, Jesus came to bring good news and the message of reconciliation between man and God. He didn't come to bring "an offer you can't refuse." He's not a politician. He didn't come to make a proposal to mankind, but to SAVE mankind.
I'll just wait for you to provide the verses detailing the after death salvation process.
Never before have i claimed that Heb 9:27 says that people can be saved after they die.
That is just you twisting the argument and trying to pass the buck to me ... It is you who are reading something into that Passage that isn't there. I understand it to mean exactly what it says, that it is appointed unto humans to die once(though some have died twice, such as Lazarus), and after humans die they face judgment(but not necessarily after they die the first time, as Lazarus was not yet Judged when he was resurrected).
I didn't say anything about you and Heb 9:27. Obviously I was referring to the verse which you think talks about the after death conversion factory.
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Again, that verse in no way says anything but that humans die (at least) one time and eventually face judgment after they die ... It says nothing about salvation at all. Even on earth if a man is judged and condemned he can still be pardoned, so i don't see why it is so hard for fundies to grasp that just because a person is judged before they confess Christ that they could still come to know the truth of Christ by virtue of the judgments they receive; as we have said many times that is the very purpose of Gods judgment - the purpose of correction
I dont' think it makes any sense to compare our law to God's law. The Bible is clear about what happens to unbelievers.
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As far as verses that speak of salvation after death, i understand these verses to say just that ...
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
In the verse above we see the people who died for their rebellion in the deluge of Noah, those who were unjust for whom Christ also died as is proven by the fact that he went and preached to their imprisoned spirits.
No, it does not say anything about anyone being saved. It says Jesus made a proclamation, an announcement, to the spirits in prison. That's all. It does not say what He said, or what it resulted to, so if you claim it resulted to the salvation of the fallen angels, then you made it up.
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And in the next chapter in connection with the above verse we read that ...
1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
The judge also reads the law to the defendant before passing judgement, but it doesn't mean they are pardoned. Living people are not saved by hearing the preaching of the gospel, because millions hear is, but reject it, and they are not saved. Well, they will hear it one more time when they are judged, and when their name is not found in the book of life they will be consigned to the lake of fire.
As for your claims about early Christians.....well, it has been proven incorrect so many times here, that there is no point in going there.
I didn't say anything about you and Heb 9:27. Obviously I was referring to the verse which you think talks about the after death conversion factory.
I dont' think it makes any sense to compare our law to God's law. The Bible is clear about what happens to unbelievers.
No, it does not say anything about anyone being saved. It says Jesus made a proclamation, an announcement, to the spirits in prison. That's all. It does not say what He said, or what it resulted to, so if you claim it resulted to the salvation of the fallen angels, then you made it up.
The judge also reads the law to the defendant before passing judgement, but it doesn't mean they are pardoned. Living people are not saved by hearing the preaching of the gospel, because millions hear is, but reject it, and they are not saved. Well, they will hear it one more time when they are judged, and when their name is not found in the book of life they will be consigned to the lake of fire.
As for your claims about early Christians.....well, it has been proven incorrect so many times here, that there is no point in going there.
Can't see the forest for the trees ... Cant believe the truth for love of a lie.
Didn't Jesus go into Hades and release the prisoners during His days of death?
You know before He came back to life.
No, Jesus did not.
That however is what the demonic angels wish was the case and certainly is an anti-Christ message that Satan puts forth to counter the finality of the judgement that Jesus spoke of.
Didn't Jesus go into Hades and release the prisoners during His days of death?
You know before He came back to life.
He emptied good side of hades and took the righteous people like Abraham with him to heaven. The unrighteous are still there when they die, but the righteous go to be with the Lord.
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