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Originally Posted by pneuma And I repeat actions speak/teach louder then words. Peters actions taught others to dissimulate after his fashion. This was something that Peter should NOT have taught others to do by his action.
August Peters dissimulation taught others to err. The scriptures even say they were led astray after the fashion of Peters dissimulation. Simply put Peter taught them to dissimulate which was an error on his part.
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Pnuema, this is merely your personal opinion. Again, it's a moral issue, not a doctrinal one. The Apostles actions do not equal teachings. Doctrine is that which is delivered by God.
August it is more then just my opinion, scripture tells us we are taught by actions.
Read the scriptures.
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
If Peters actions did not teach something then why was Peter to be blamed for his action of dissimulation? Why was Peter to blame for others dissimulation?
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Dissimulation is an act of hypocrisy
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Peter was NOT walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel.
Now this is what Peters dissimulation taught, which is a doctrinal issue.
15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I'll repeat again August actions speak/teach louder then words. You can speak to others all day about the Love of God and that wont teach anyone anything about the Love of God, but you show them the Love of God and they will learn about His Love.
How does the world know we are Christ disciples? If we love one another. It is not our words " I love you" that shows the world we love one another it is our actions of love for one another that will show the world we are His disciples.
Do you believe that the pope (or anyone else for that matter) can teach "do as I say, not as I do" without being a hypocrite? Because that is exactly what you are saying the pope can teach.
What it boils down to August is that you seem to believe Paul was in error and Peter was right to teach as he did through his actions.
Paul did not call down Peter for no reason August, he did it because Peter was leading others astray by his action, which as Paul shows was a doctrinal issue.
And it is by Christ's authority that He was able to extend it to Peter to be able to rule. Why else would Jesus change Simon's name to ROCK and give him individually the power to bind and loose? THAT is authority!
Blessings,
augusta
PS I said I was a former Protestant.
Christ gives ALL CHRIST FOLLOWERS the authority to act on behalf of Christ and supplies us with the power to carry that out ; The Bible says that Christ has all authority and that WE (as Christ Followers) are seated in the heavenly realms WITH Christ (Ephesians 2) -- this isnt just for alleged Popes and Priests . Just as a local Policeman carries with him authority to excersise and is backed up by the ENTIRE Law Enforcement Agency of the Land , so are we when we are IN CHRIST .
Christians give Christ ALL the honor and glory...and do not share an ounce of it with fellow human Sinners regardless of fancy garb and church status...and who literally demand that Parishoners submit their complete mind, will, and intellect to them (Vatican 2, Volume 1) .
Originally Posted by pneuma And I repeat actions speak/teach louder then words. Peters actions taught others to dissimulate after his fashion. This was something that Peter should NOT have taught others to do by his action.
August Peters dissimulation taught others to err. The scriptures even say they were led astray after the fashion of Peters dissimulation. Simply put Peter taught them to dissimulate which was an error on his part.
August it is more then just my opinion, scripture tells us we are taught by actions.
Read the scriptures.
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
If Peters actions did not teach something then why was Peter to be blamed for his action of dissimulation? Why was Peter to blame for others dissimulation?
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Dissimulation is an act of hypocrisy
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Peter was NOT walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel.
Now this is what Peters dissimulation taught, which is a doctrinal issue.
15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I'll repeat again August actions speak/teach louder then words. You can speak to others all day about the Love of God and that wont teach anyone anything about the Love of God, but you show them the Love of God and they will learn about His Love.
How does the world know we are Christ disciples? If we love one another. It is not our words " I love you" that shows the world we love one another it is our actions of love for one another that will show the world we are His disciples.
Do you believe that the pope (or anyone else for that matter) can teach "do as I say, not as I do" without being a hypocrite? Because that is exactly what you are saying the pope can teach.
What it boils down to August is that you seem to believe Paul was in error and Peter was right to teach as he did through his actions.
Paul did not call down Peter for no reason August, he did it because Peter was leading others astray by his action, which as Paul shows was a doctrinal issue.
Pneuma, we would all have to be perfect and completely free of error and sin in order to order to teach by your standards. Do you think that's humanly possible?
Jesus prayed for Peter alone for his faith to not fail. But no where does He say that Peter or any of the apostles were expected to be sinless or to teach by "example".
Pneuma, for what reason do you think Jesus singled Peter out and changed his name to Rock, gave Peter individually the authority to bind and loose, and him alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven?
Pneuma, we would all have to be perfect and completely free of error and sin in order to order to teach by your standards. Do you think that's humanly possible?
Jesus prayed for Peter alone for his faith to not fail. But no where does He say that Peter or any of the apostles were expected to be sinless or to teach by "example".
No . . . it is not possible which is why those who assume the mantle of teacher have a heavier burden. Failure must not be a small thing . . . given Jesus prayed that it not happen. It is wiser to simply follow the dictates of "love God and each other" rather than engage in teaching all sorts of beliefs and justifications of ritual observances (and magical thinking). Jesus said His burden was light . . . sounds good to me.
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Pneuma, for what reason do you think Jesus singled Peter out and changed his name to Rock, gave Peter individually the authority to bind and loose, and him alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven?
He didn't . . and He specifically taught against hierarchy. But the RCC uses the very example He tried to set as the ritual by which Pope's are inaugurated . . talk about irony!
No . . . it is not possible which is why those who assume the mantle of teacher have a heavier burden. Failure must not be a small thing . . . given Jesus prayed that it not happen. It is wiser to simply follow the dictates of "love God and each other" rather than engage in teaching all sorts of beliefs and justifications of ritual observances (and magical thinking). Jesus said His burden was light . . . sounds good to me. He didn't . . and He specifically taught against hierarchy. But the RCC uses the very example He tried to set as the ritual by which Pope's are inaugurated . . talk about irony!
"He didn't"?? Jesus didn't change Simon's name to Rock or give Peter the keys to the kingdom?
I assume that you too do not believe in Scripture?
Christ gives ALL CHRIST FOLLOWERS the authority to act on behalf of Christ and supplies us with the power to carry that out ; The Bible says that Christ has all authority and that WE (as Christ Followers) are seated in the heavenly realms WITH Christ (Ephesians 2) -- this isnt just for alleged Popes and Priests . Just as a local Policeman carries with him authority to excersise and is backed up by the ENTIRE Law Enforcement Agency of the Land , so are we when we are IN CHRIST .
Christians give Christ ALL the honor and glory...and do not share an ounce of it with fellow human Sinners regardless of fancy garb and church status...and who literally demand that Parishoners submit their complete mind, will, and intellect to them (Vatican 2, Volume 1) .
Regards.
007.5, Jesus did not give you or I the power to bind and loose or the keys to the kingdom of heaven. If he did then you need to show this from Scripture like I did. This authority is why the Catholic Church is still one in Christ today and Protestantism is dividing daily. Again, Jesus said we must be one as he and the Father are One and that there shall be NO divisions among us.
Have you ever read about Korah's Rebellion? How Korah and his men rebelled against Moses' authority and what the Lord did to him for it? Scary stuff...
And the LORD said to Moses and to Aaron, "Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they are visited by the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth, and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD." And as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split asunder; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men that belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. And all Israel that were round about them fled at their cry; for they said, "Lest the earth swallow us up!" And fire came forth from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense. -Numbers 16
I do not believe in THAT interpretation of scripture. Why is it those who disagree with your interpretation who do not believe scripture?
My question had nothing to do about my "interpretation."
My question was:
for what reason do you think Jesus singled Peter out and changed his name to Rock, gave Peter individually the authority to bind and loose, and him alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven?
My question had nothing to do about my "interpretation." My question was: for what reason do you think Jesus singled Peter out and changed his name to Rock, gave Peter individually the authority to bind and loose, and him alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven?
And your question contained the ASSumption that Jesus did that based on YOUR interpretation (and the RCC's) of the passage. I do not accept the assumptions of that interpretation.
And your question contained the ASSumption that Jesus did that based on YOUR interpretation (and the RCC's) of the passage. I do not accept the assumptions of that interpretation.
My goodness but what a tantrum. I take it refusing to give honest, direct answers to simple questions and calling people an ASS is your idea of "LOVE."
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