Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thomas, I'm only referring to flawed modern translations of two Koine Greek words -malakoi and arsenokoites - as "homosexuals".
Not the whole history of the dogma of the church.
Okay. See being Catholic it's basically enough that pretty much the entire history of Christianity is clear homosexuality is wrong. I don't really need a Bible quote to be unambiguous on the matter. It's clear in context, and by implication, regardless of what that word means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Ann Lamott
True enough I suppose, but I imagine for many of us it doesn't work that way. There are many people I don't get along with who aren't necessarily doing much anything I disapprove of or that I think God disapproves. I'd imagine many other Christians know a person who's perfectly virtuous but still annoys them for some reason. Maybe it's their taste in music or their laugh or their hobbies or because they spit when they talk or whatever. There are gays or atheists I've gotten along with okay.
Although I admit I think there is a times a tendency to equate ones own discomfort into a religious thing. For example if that quote in Corinthians does mean homosexuals it's in a list that includes drunkards, the covetous, fornicators, and revilers. Yet I think most Christians likely do treat homosexuals in a way they would not treat drunks, people who "shack up", people who slander others, or those who envy their neighbors new luxury-car. Indeed I would say a large percent of Christians I know have a child who ended up living with someone, and I don't mean as roommates, without ever marrying them. Sometimes they may disown such kids, but not that often even if they're totally unrepentant about it. I think offspring who even told their parents "I was in a gay relationship for awhile, but I know that's not what we believe and I'll try to avoid it in the future" would be more likely to get parents disgusted or hostile than the "unrepentant shacking up" ones.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 09-08-2011 at 12:32 AM..
I believe the question we should be asking is, "Do we love our family/friends more than God?"
True believers in Christ would not be doing our family/friends any favors by condoning their behavior which we know is hated by God. If it's wrong in God's eyes, it's also wrong in our eyes (true believers in Christ).
James 5 - 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
1 Corinthians 6 - 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Galatians 5 - 16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
But you missed my point: If family members (and others) can love us even when we do things that are wrong (or just not according to our own values), then are they more loving than God is?
IF God loves us more than we can imagine, how can anyone even THINK that God will condemn homosexuals???? Their own mothers don't condemn them because they love them, so God must be even MORE loving!
Considering I've spent many years studying this issue, whereas most conservative Christians just spew the same lies their pastor tells them, or what they read from out of context 21st Century butchered English translations... yes.
So everyone is else is wrong and you're right? That's all I needed to know.
Only if you think "gay sex" is Canaanite sacred male temple prostitution or male rape.
I simply showed you that the word "homosexual" does not have to exist in the Bible, when it can be described so clearly without the word: "man lies with a man as one lies with a woman". It says nothing about temples, prostitutes or rape. If a man lies with a man in a temple, or with a prostitute or rapes another man, it does not make it any more or less sinful, because the mere act is sinful, as is hetero sex outside of marriage. Both fall in the category of sexual immorality.
How could gay sex outside of marriage be less sinful than hetero sex outside of marriage? Of course it is not. You are trying to justify sin, and look for loop holes, and if you are Christian (I don't know if you are or not), then it is not a good thing.
You are aware that you are quoting that in English, and it wasn't written in English right?
Did you know that the 2 words for "lies" in that verse have different meanings in Hebrew? Did you know that "lies with a woman" is not accurate and doesn't quite translate correctly in English? It's closer to "in the lyings of or in the beds of woman". Did you also know, detestable (more commonly quoted as abomination) is a mistranslation from the KJV? To'evah (which is the Hebrew word translated as detestable) means ritually taboo. Something to separate the Israelites from their surrounding cultures.
Did you also read the context of the chapter you ripped that verse out of? Did you notice that chapter starts by discussing incestuous relationships, and then abruptly switches to discuss pagan worship rituals to the god Molech and how Israelites should not prostitute themselves like the Caananites?
No doubt, you didn't know any of that. Because all you people can do is rip verses out of context in the wrong language, and claim "see God hates gays!"
I simply showed you that the word "homosexual" does not have to exist in the Bible, when it can be described so clearly without the word: "man lies with a man as one lies with a woman". It says nothing about temples, prostitutes or rape. If a man lies with a man in a temple, or with a prostitute or rapes another man, it does not make it any more or less sinful, because the mere act is sinful, as is hetero sex outside of marriage. Both fall in the category of sexual immorality.
How could gay sex outside of marriage be less sinful than hetero sex outside of marriage? Of course it is not. You are trying to justify sin, and look for loop holes, and if you are Christian (I don't know if you are or not), then it is not a good thing.
I guess the main difference is that you choose to ignore the cultural context and the original language of the verse, and I choose to read it in context of the culture and language in which it was written.
I guess the main difference is that you choose to ignore the cultural context and the original language of the verse, and I choose to read it in context of the culture and language in which it was written.
Again, how could gay sex outside of marriage not be sinful, while hetero sex outside of marriage is sinful? Why would God make an exception for gays, and condemn heteros? Think about it. Would it make sense to you? You are looking for loop holes and you are trying to justify sin.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 09-08-2011 at 06:40 AM..
But you missed my point: If family members (and others) can love us even when we do things that are wrong (or just not according to our own values), then are they more loving than God is?
IF God loves us more than we can imagine, how can anyone even THINK that God will condemn homosexuals???? Their own mothers don't condemn them because they love them, so God must be even MORE loving!
Blessings,
brian
Although I don't think gays are condemned as such I don't find the mother-analogy entirely sensible. There are certainly mothers who don't reject, or even criticize, their child even if he's a suicide-bomber or rapist. And no I'm not comparing homosexuality to either thing, I'm just saying I don't think it quite works to use a standard of "what their mother" accepts. Mothers do not have to be concerned with society as a whole or what's right for it.
If you want something more Biblical Jesus strongly criticizes certain greedy members of the Pharisees. You could assume all those Pharisees were condemned or criticized by their mothers, but there's not really any evidence of that.
And I feel a bit of deja-vu saying that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Again, how could gay sex outside of marriage not be sinful, if hetero sex outside of marriage is sinful? Think about it. Would it make sense to you? You are looking for loop holes and you are trying to justify sin.
From what I can tell, by what s/he said on the atheist section, Jaymax is apparently not a theist or Christian so there's that. Still I think the thinking is one of two or three things.
1: Fornication isn't a sin either, the idea it is comes from mistranslations and interpolations.
2: Homosexual sex is only acceptable within the bounds of a same-sex marriage. Same-sex marriages are not referred to in the Bible because people did not have a concept of "homosexuality", as an orientation rather than an action, until much later. Once the existence of homosexuals was understood Christian rules should apply to them like everyone. So they must marry rather than "burn with desire." (Considering heterosexuals record, and what homosexual same-sex marriage advocates state, I think the number of non-celibate homosexuals who would avoid premarital sex, adultery, and divorces not due to "lewd conduct" is vanishingly small or non-existent. I'd say the percent of heterosexuals who avoid those three is likely under 10% and maybe under 5%. Hence I think I've rarely seen anyone state this except as an intellectual argument)
3: Possibly that the Bible is only referring to the rules for heterosexuals. Consensual non-pagan homosexuality is never actually referred to at any point in the Bible. Therefore the only rules to it are those of secular society (Consensual, non-abusive, adult-on-adult, non-relatives) as homosexuals are to figure things out for themselves. (Relationally I guess an argument can be made that homosexual sex is not intercourse and therefore sexual rules don't apply)
Last edited by Thomas R.; 09-08-2011 at 06:25 AM..
As a Jew, I'm well aware of the difference. But until fundie Christians stop quoting Leviticus 18 and 20 to condemn gay people, I will continue to show their hypocrisy in cherry picking the law.
Most Jews don't even follow those laws anymore, so for your average Christian who doesn't even understand the Bible, it's absurd that they use Mosaic law to condemn gay people.
I've heard far too many Christians say in one breath they don't follow OT anymore and then in the next breath condemn gays. It doesn't make any sense at all. Not to mention the OT also says that blind people may not approach the altar, and I must say--I've never been turned down on the basis of my blindness.
Quote:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 18:22 KJV
Quote:
18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
Leviticus 21:18-21 KJV
These two verses aren't even that far from each other! Why would a church turn down a gay person but not a blind person? Come to think of it, when I first read that verse, I was reading it in braille. Why do Christian-affiliated companies make Bibles in large print/audio/braille format for the blind while condemning gay people when there are verses in the Bible that condemn both?
As long as churches continue to welcome me into their congregations as a blind member, I simply cannot accept the fact that they would turn me down as soon as they find out I'm also gay.
The Bible barely talks about God at all. There are a few verses here and there that talk about God's love, but it is chock-full of human fear. God is about love. God is love. God does not hate because hate is a fear-based emotion and God has no fear. The fear in the Bible is our own projected fear in all its permutations (hatred, prejudice, etc.) and has very little to do with God. So if you want to know more about God, the last place to look is the Bible--especially the OT.
Again, how could gay sex outside of marriage not be sinful, while hetero sex outside of marriage is sinful? Why would God make an exception for gays, and condemn heteros? Think about it. Would it make sense to you? You are looking for loop holes and you are trying to justify sin.
Plenty of gay and lesbian couples are married. Think about it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's all I needed to know.
I've heard far too many Christians say in one breath they don't follow OT anymore and then in the next breath condemn gays. It doesn't make any sense at all. Not to mention the OT also says that blind people may not approach the altar, and I must say--I've never been turned down on the basis of my blindness. 
