Rightly Dividing the Word of God is the Issue for me and I hope for you too! (believers, scripture)
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"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
It seems very clear to me that "those who obey the law will be declared righteous" according to Paul. And it seems to me that it is your opinion that that Paul has not meant what he has said. Do you suppose he might be referring to an law that has been added to the law? The law of the Spirit, perhaps? That if a Jew or a Gentile has the faith to obey this one God will declare both of them righteous?
Is what I said in post # 43 unclear to anyone else who read it? I'm serious. I want to know if those who read that post honestly could not understand it!
Is what I said in post # 43 unclear to anyone else who read it? I'm serious. I want to know if those who read that post honestly could not understand it!
Didn't the apostle Peter say that Paul's writing is hard to understand Mike?
It is not that I've misunderstood your #43 post, it is just that your #43 post proves you have misunderstood Paul.
Didn't the apostle Peter say that Paul's writing is hard to understand Mike?
It is not that I've misunderstood your #43 post, it is just that your #43 post proves you have misunderstood Paul.
To the contrary. Paul's whole point is that no one is capable of keeping the law and that the whole world is guilty. That is why Jesus had to come into the world to pay for the sins of the world and that is why it through faith in Jesus Christ that one is justified, made righteous. And Paul after writing about the consequences of unbelief in Romans chapter one and the impartiality of God concerning both Jew and Gentile in chapter two, and in chapter 3 that all the world is guilty - that means everyone, he then in chapter four states that justification is through faith and that that fact was evidenced in the Old Testament by referring to fact that Abraham was justified by faith and not by the works of the law. In Romans Paul progresses from showing that the law cannot save, to showing that salvation is through faith alone in Christ, to talking about the Christian life in the latter part of his letter.
Again, absolutely no one has ever been justifed by keeping the law. Only Jesus Christ was able to fulfill the requirements of the law. Romans 2:13 as well as Romans 2:7 are only hypothetical in nature. Paul's point is that justification is through faith in Christ and not by the law.
To make it even more clear, Paul stated in Romans 3:20 that no one is justified by the works of the law.
To the contrary. Paul's whole point is that no one is capable of keeping the law and that the whole world is guilty. That is why Jesus had to come into the world to pay for the sins of the world and that is why it through faith in Jesus Christ that one is justified, made righteous. And Paul after writing about the consequences of unbelief in Romans chapter one and the impartiality of God concerning both Jew and Gentile in chapter two, and in chapter 3 that all the world is guilty - that means everyone, he then in chapter four states that justification is through faith and that that fact was evidenced in the Old Testament by referring to fact that Abraham was justified by faith and not by the works of the law. In Romans Paul progresses from showing that the law cannot save, to showing that salvation is through faith alone in Christ, to talking about the Christian life in the latter part of his letter.
Again, absolutely no one has ever been justifed by keeping the law. Only Jesus Christ was able to fulfill the requirements of the law. Romans 2:13 as well as Romans 2:7 are only hypothetical in nature. Paul's point is that justification is through faith in Christ and not by the law.
To make it even more clear, Paul stated in Romans 3:20 that no one is justified by the works of the law.
The law which Paul is referencing that cannot be kept for righteousness, even if it is kept perfectly, that does not result in being declared righteous by God is the OT code i.e. written code. This is the law of sin and death. However the law Paul is referencing in Rom. 2:13 & 5:20 is the law of the Spirit which has been added to the law after Jesus' was crucified. No one will be declared righteous by God unless he has the faith to obey God by this added law in regard to Jesus' crucifixion as an accountable sin caused by bloodshed.
The law which Paul is referencing that cannot be kept for righteousness, even if it is kept perfectly, that does not result in being declared righteous by God is the OT code i.e. written code. This is the law of sin and death. However the law Paul is referencing in Rom. 2:13 & 5:20 is the law of the Spirit which has been added to the law after Jesus' was crucified. No one will be declared righteous by God unless he has the faith to obey God by this added law in regard to Jesus' crucifixion as an accountable sin caused by bloodshed.
Justification is not a matter of obedience. Justification - being declared righteous occurs at the very moment of faith in Christ.
Obedience becomes an issue after salvation. It is not an issue in becoming saved, except to obey the command to believe in Christ. Abraham was given as an example by Paul as an example that salvation is through faith alone. Not faith hooked up with obedience.
Justification is not a matter of obedience. Justification - being declared righteous occurs at the very moment of faith in Christ.
Obedience becomes an issue after salvation. It is not an issue in becoming saved, except to obey the command to believe in Christ. Abraham was given as an example by Paul as an example that salvation is through faith alone. Not faith hooked up with obedience.
If there is a command of any sort to obey first, Mike, then it is most definitely, as you admit, that obedience prior to salvation is required or one disobeys a command. Your defense just shot you in your head, Mike.
If there is a command of any sort to obey first, Mike, then it is most definitely, as you admit, that obedience prior to salvation is required or one disobeys a command. Your defense just shot you in your head, Mike.
You still fail to understand. The only command an unbeliever can obey is to believe in Christ. Obedience after salvation is a completely different issue.
The obedience that God expects of believers after salvation is not required to be eternally saved. Salvation is offered only as a free gift and can only be received as such.
John 3:36 is translated by the NASB as '"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
The King James translates John 3:36 as 'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.'
So is the one who will not see life the one who disobeys the Son, or the one who believes not the Son? Simply look to the Greek for the answer.
The word translated as 'does not obey' by the NASB, and as' believeth not' by the King James is 'apeitheó.
The one who disobeys the Son with regard to eternal salvation is the one who refuses to be persuaded - who refuses to believe on the Son.
And the opposite is that the one who believes the Son shall see life - eternal salvation.
If you are saying that any obedience other than simply believing on Christ is necessary in order to be eternally saved, then in keeping with the topic of this thread, you are not rightly dividing the Word of God.
1.) Regarding eternal salvation, the believer is justified before God in one moment of time through an initial moment of faith alone in Christ alone. (Paul)
2.) Regarding the spiritual life after salvation, the believer is justified experientially before God and man on the basis of his spiritual production - his works. (James)
You still fail to understand. The only command an unbeliever can obey is to believe in Christ. Obedience after salvation is a completely different issue.
The obedience that God expects of believers after salvation is not required to be eternally saved. Salvation is offered only as a free gift and can only be received as such.
John 3:36 is translated by the NASB as '"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
The King James translates John 3:36 as 'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.'
So is the one who will not see life the one who disobeys the Son, or the one who believes not the Son? Simply look to the Greek for the answer.
The word translated as 'does not obey' by the NASB, and as' believeth not' by the King James is 'apeitheó.
The one who disobeys the Son with regard to eternal salvation is the one who refuses to be persuaded - who refuses to believe on the Son.
And the opposite is that the one who believes the Son shall see life - eternal salvation.
If you are saying that any obedience other than simply believing on Christ is necessary in order to be eternally saved, then in keeping with the topic of this thread, you are not rightly dividing the Word of God.
1.) Regarding eternal salvation, the believer is justified before God in one moment of time through an initial moment of faith alone in Christ alone. (Paul)
2.) Regarding the spiritual life after salvation, the believer is justified experientially before God and man on the basis of his spiritual production - his works. (James)
Well Mike your allegation that I don't understand you is fully false. I do fully understand your conjecture, but I also fully do not agree with your opinion. However that I fully don't agree with you, which I fully never will, does not mean that you have divided the Word of truth correctly. Surely you believe who and what Jesus Christ is, but the devils also believe what you believe and teach, but they unlike you tremble at even the thought of who and what Jesus is. Let me ask you Mike. In respone to the Acts 2:38 command, the Lord's command given through the apostles, what is the fact that those people were reminded of that was the motive for them to obey this command first in order to save themselves from God's wrath?
Well Mike your allegation that I don't understand you is fully false. I do fully understand your conjecture, but I also fully do not agree with your opinion. However that I fully don't agree with you, which I fully never will, does not mean that you have divided the Word of truth correctly. Surely you believe who and what Jesus Christ is, but the devils also believe what you believe and teach, but they unlike you tremble at even the thought of who and what Jesus is. Let me ask you Mike. In respone to the Acts 2:38 command, the Lord's command given through the apostles, what is the fact that those people were reminded of that was the motive for them to obey this command first in order to save themselves from God's wrath?
I did a thread of its own on Acts 2:38. Free free to look it up.
James did not teach salvation by works. He made it clear in James 2:10-11 that no one keeps the law.
James was not even talking about eternal salvation in chapter two. He was talking about deliverance from a useless spiritual life. He was saying that experientially a believer is justified before both God and man by his works. This is in contrast with Paul who talked about being justified before God with regard to eternal salvation on the basis of faith alone.
Paul was talking about eternal salvation while James was talking about temporal deliverance from a non-productive spiritual life. Rightly divide the Word of truth.
Regarding James 2:19 the fallen angels understand that Jesus Christ is God, but they do not trust in Him for salvation. Jesus did not die for the fallen angels. He died for mankind. Whatever means that God may have provided for the fallen angels to be restored to a relationship with Him is not disclosed in the Bible.
To believe on Christ means to trust in Him for salvation. Any member of the human race who places his personal faith - trust in Jesus Christ is saved.
Eternal salvation is strictly through faith alone in Christ alone.
I did a thread of its own on Acts 2:38. Free free to look it up.
James did not teach salvation by works. He made it clear in James 2:10-11 that no one keeps the law.
James was not even talking about eternal salvation in chapter two. He was talking about deliverance from a useless spiritual life. He was saying that experientially a believer is justified before both God and man by his works. This is in contrast with Paul who talked about being justified before God with regard to eternal salvation on the basis of faith alone.
Paul was talking about eternal salvation while James was talking about temporal deliverance from a non-productive spiritual life. Rightly divide the Word of truth.
Regarding James 2:19 the fallen angels understand that Jesus Christ is God, but they do not trust in Him for salvation. Jesus did not die for the fallen angels. He died for mankind. Whatever means that God may have provided for the fallen angels to be restored to a relationship with Him is not disclosed in the Bible.
To believe on Christ means to trust in Him for salvation. Any member of the human race who places his personal faith - trust in Jesus Christ is saved.
Eternal salvation is strictly through faith alone in Christ alone.
Friend you have stated several times that after a person is saved by the conjecture you advocate that he will obey the Lord's commands then. I have deliberately closed several of my responses to you with a question. And each time I have you have consistantly failed to answer the question
and also disobyed a direct command of the Lord. "Give to the one who asks you." His position about a person like you who on the one hand calims to be one of his disciples, but refuses to obey him, is actually lying about what he claims to be by the fact that you refuse to obey what he commands. No student is greater than his teacher, friend, and no man can serve two masters, friend, for the master he hates he always disobeys.
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