The Conclusion (convert, devil, demons, universalism)

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by O-Ducky

You people are clearly teaching that all is well with everyone and there is no urgent need for repentance and being born again before you die.

I'm not aware of any URs on this forum that teach that.

What we do teach is that failure to repent and trust in Jesus as our Savior before we die will result in experiencing kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement), not eternal torment.

Sooner or later everyone will be saved.
We know this is true because God will have (wants) all men to be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).

Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him)

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the salvation of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)

So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.

His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL WHO BELIEVE
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.

NEW TESTAMENT GREEK LEXICON

thelo

to will, have in mind, intend
to be resolved or determined
to purpose
to desire, to wish
to love
to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
to take delight in, have pleasure

[saved33]

Where in the Bible does it address experiencing kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement)?

God would NOT have left this so-called "truth" unsaid.

Show us some Bible passages. And don't quote a Bible passage, insert the word "until" and then state another Bible passage.

Where does God address this other state of being?

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by saved33

Where in the Bible does it address experiencing kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement)?

Listed below are fifteen translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 25:46.

1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."

2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."

3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age.”

8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."

10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."

13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."

14. Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.” The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
Chapter Eleven

[O-Ducky]

it's so obvious roger... 'tut'? i can only wonder where tut comes from... anyway. all you do is come on here posting teachings of man and like allways you try to cover up the truth.

and pcamps. anyone who has seen my posts knows that all i do is post what yahushua said. so your not saying im wrong but yahushua is wrong. also, your blind or intentionally trying to twist what i've said. i said that you deceptive doctrine teaches that there is no need for repentance before you die. you said that you do teach repentance. your totally blind or intentionally trying to mislead people from the obvious point. before you leave this earth. is it not clear whos trying to decieve and twist people words. isnt that fruit of the wrong tree and children of the wrong father. is it not very clear. it is to me. i'm not trying to twist anything or mislead people into believing something you haven't said. your chosing to be blind.

yes his burden is light. take it from someone who's repented of sin and has been set free. i'm a born again spirit filled obedient child of God who obeys the teachings of the messiah and i love it.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by O-Ducky

it's so obvious roger... 'tut'? i can only wonder where tut comes from... anyway. all you do is come on here posting teachings of man and like allways you try to cover up the truth.

and pcamps. anyone who has seen my posts knows that all i do is post what yahushua said. so your not saying im wrong but yahushua is wrong. also, your blind or intentionally trying to twist what i've said. i said that you deceptive doctrine teaches that there is no need for repentance before you die. you said that you do teach repentance. your totally blind or intentionally trying to mislead people from the obvious point. before you leave this earth. is it not clear whos trying to decieve and twist people words. isnt that fruit of the wrong tree and children of the wrong father. is it not very clear. it is to me. i'm not trying to twist anything or mislead people into believing something you haven't said. your chosing to be blind.

yes his burden is light. take it from someone who's repented of sin and has been set free. i'm a born again spirit filled obedient child of God who obeys the teachings of the messiah and i love it.

You're kidding me !!!!

Anyone who has seen my posts knows that all i do is post what yahushua said ??????????

Where you getting that information from ?

What's the deal with calling Jesus yahushua(yes i know what it means), are you Jewish,do you think it gives you some kind of credibility ?

Do you know that it's the goodness of God that causes us(you included) to repent,and not your own decision, so i think you need to go easy on preaching repentance,especially when God was tolerant and patient in his own goodness bring you to repentance.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by O-Ducky

it's so obvious roger... 'tut'? i can only wonder where tut comes from... anyway. all you do is come on here posting teachings of man and like allways you try to cover up the truth.

Interested students will examine the evidence and will decide for themselves.

While the righteous are enjoying life eonian, the unrighteous will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

A snippet from
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with the conclusions of John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

Also see

THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

[O-Ducky]

and what kind of sense does this make. first you universalists claim the word of God isn't understandable and your greek scholars have the hidden meanings, and then when the going gets rough for you then you claim, oh well, you see, we dont really believe the word accually. we believe what our heart tells us.

your snatching the seed away. period.

well, you might as well get use to me being around exalting the teachings of the messiah because i plan on standing up for the truth here for as long as he wants me too.

the gospel:

repent and get baptized... now
so you can be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, set free from sin, before you die or leave this earth or Yahushua's return

get your name in the Lambs book of life now before it's too late.

that's the gospel. that's what Yahushua said. that's what you might want to consider believing and teaching.

what a blessing it is to really know Elohim and be ready for His return. and bring others with you.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

God did not say he was going to set people on fire forever. That's a manmade interpretation that accuses God of being evil. Nature tells us what God is like, so no one has an excuse to believe such horrorible things about Him. Nothing in nature shows us that it is good to set a living person on fire and keep them that way.

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Are you talking about the tsunami of 2004?

Finn, once again you demonstrate your total inability to distinquish the difference between death and never-ending torture. According to mainstream Christian beliefs, one of the happiest moments of a person's existence (who was an unbeliever on earth), would be the moment they are being swept out to sea in a tsuanmi or the moments between jumping off the World Trade Center and hitting the ground. In the hell you believe in, a person will be burning forever thinking, "If only God would let me go back to that burning building and jump, I'd do that over and over again to find relief from these flames." Or, "If only God would allow me to go back to that beach and be swept out to sea over and over again. That would be so much better than this." That's what the god you believe in will subject most people to, while the others who were taught the "correct" things will be forever joyous, never to shed a tear or have any fears. That is not love. That is not justice. That is not mercy that endures forever.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by O-Ducky

well, you might as well get use to me being around exalting the teachings of the messiah because i plan on standing up for the truth here for as long as he wants me too.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 72 years old now.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see
THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Of course. Automatic salvation is nothing but a licence to sin.

I thought you believed in "once-saved-always-saved," but maybe I'm thinking of someone else. Anyway, it's as much a "license to sin" as UR. In both cases it's a silly argument because people who love God desire and strive not to sin. People who don't desire and strive not to sin don't have a good relationship with God whether they believe in universal reconciliation or that God will torture people (but not them, of course, because one day they make a good choice.)