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I'll read the rest of this tomorrow, but trettep's idea of Satan being a personification of carnal human frailty is interesting when read in light of the story of Jesus being tempted by Satan. An unconventional explanation could be that Jesus was fighting against his human side, e.g. the lust for power, wealth? Of course Christ's divine side knew that was preposterous, since he was the Son/God already owned all of that already. Which is why it never made sense, unless Jesus was somehow blind-sided of his divine identity for that time.
FOUNDATION (disposition and opposition) of the WORLD (inhabitants).
Indeed, there have been messengers’ who have fallen, but they weren’t angels! The false prophets have attempted to turn the truth of adversity into the lie called Satan through their
blending of Christianity with the thoughts of Pagan philosophers, under the authority of the Emperors who required a national amalgamated religion to solidity their control over the people.
Your adversary and the accusers of Christ, seek whom they can devour; the gullible.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
FOUNDATION (disposition and opposition) of the WORLD (inhabitants).
Not sure where you got that definition? The thing is there are 2 words in the Scriptures defined as foundation:themelios and katabole.
The noun themelois occurs in passages such as this one:
Luke 6:48-49
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation [themelios] on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
The noun katabole occurs in passages such as this one and is never used of the words world [*kosmos] or the earth [*ge] :
Matt. 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation [katabole] of the
world.[kosmos=the world as created, ordered and arranged].
*There are 4 words in the NT translated as 'world:' kosmos, aion[age],oikoumene,[the world as inhabited;from the verb to dwell] and ge [land, ground].
The corresponding verb of katabole is kataballo and occurs in passages such as this one:
2 Corin. 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, [kataballo] but not destroyed;
Accordingly, the noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the verb kataballo, ought to be translated as casting down; overthrow.
Good advice ... read the Book again. God doesn't operate in human common sense:
Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.
Ever read about a bush that was on fire..
Exodus 3:1-3 Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
Here are some examples of what the OT says about the fate of the wicked:
Psalm 37:13 but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends— even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Isaiah 2:12 The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled)
Isaiah 13:9 See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
Psalm 69:23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.
Proverbs 21:15 When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.
Yes, and here's some more about the fate of the wicked:
Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Psa. 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Ps 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Pr 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out
Pr 24:20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
The concept of fallen angels does not spring from the Christian bible either. The ‘bible’ clearly shows that all the ‘angels’ are by nature obedient to ‘god’ (e.g. Psa. 103:19-21; Psa. 148:2; Heb. 1:13,14).
The concept of fallen angels does not spring from the Christian bible either. The ‘bible’ clearly shows that all the ‘angels’ are by nature obedient to ‘god’ (e.g. Psa. 103:19-21; Psa. 148:2; Heb. 1:13,14).
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The concept of fallen angels does not spring from the Christian bible either.
Oh really. Then you must not be familar with the Hebrew words naphal and Rephaim. I'll give you a clue. Rephaim means 'fallen ones' from the word naphal which means "to fall," and are referred to as 'the dead' in Isa. 14:9, and 26:14,19.
Last edited by mshipmate; 01-12-2012 at 05:19 PM..
Oh really. Then you must not be familar with the Hebrew words naphal and Rephaim. I'll give you a clue. Rephaim means 'fallen ones' from the word naphal which means "to fall," and are referred to as 'the dead' in Isa. 14:9, and 26:14,19.
Not only do some folks take the bible literally, but they also try to apply ancient languages with meanings appropriate to a culture that is 2000 years to our current times.
Personally, if you all want to believe in the "real" existence of a Satan or not, I don't care. Whether or not this Satan exists is a non-sequitur in living out a religious philosophy.
One thing I have noted is the degree of literal-ness posters are insisting upon when quoting Biblical passages. So far, I have not noted any attempt to understand what the author(s) of these quoted passages were thinking about when they wrote them PLUS the thought processes of the redactors who put the Old Testament together in the second century b.c.
Most theologians worth their salt agree that there is not a unified "God" in the Old Testament. In fact, a major leitmotive of the Old Testament is the lamentable fact that God cannot be defined. The old story of four blind men trying to describe an elephant is akin to how God is portrayed in the Old Testament: no one has the whole picture. I would add, no one even as a little piece of the picture.
We have entire books that are nothing but complaints against God. We have God actually mocking Job in that nice little piece of fiction. But in either case, we do not have a theology whereby "Satan made me do it." anywhere in the Old Testament.
In Job, Satan is Man's Adversary, not God's. He is depicted as God's District Attorney in the fictitious heavenly court.
In Isaiah, this Lucifer referred to the planet Venus.
The devil, according to Jewish thinking and philosophy, manifested itself in human form, such as Alexander the Great and his offspring, obviously the Romans, definitely Herod. But at the same time, the devil's power was temporary and never "for ever and ever."
Greek thought influenced the Jewish religion to the point where different factions of Judaism were at war with each other. Angeology and demonology, described by Alfred Edersheim at great length, were very late inventions of the Judaic philosophy. Christianity inherited much of this through Paul and other like-minded folks.
The idea of Satan as a fallen angel has more roots in Greek mythology than elsewhere, although I can imagine that if we dug deep enough we would get back to some Sumerian mythology. The Christ used the parables and thoughts of the day to get his message across; in fact, every parable he told was well-known by his listeners except for the fact that he turned each one on its "head." Since his listeners understood the concept of the Devil and Satan as being of human-derivation and obstacles for being righteous before God, the Christ used those conventions. It would have been ridiculous for him to state that a person "possessed" by demons was actually suffering from a mild stroke or aneurysm, because no one would understand what he was talking about.
Then we have Paul who turned the Christ Philosophy almost inside out with his Greek background and belief in the separation of the body and the soul as well as a heavy dose of Greek mythology (i.e., angels and demons).
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There is really no support for an actual Satan being an anti-God adversary in the Bible. Believe me, I have tried.
To equate the "wicked" with this Satan figure is completely distorting the messages of doom and gloom and judgment upon certain segments of the world's population. Not unlike what a lot of people do today.
Anyone who does not agree with me automatically falls into the "wicked" category. As we really examine the nitty-gritty of the many messages contained in the Bible, we recognize a fundamentalistic view of many of the preachers (shakers and movers) attempting to cookie-cutter their personal views of a God upon the populace.
Add to that a heavy dose of a desire for revenge for all the "sins" of past enemies, a lot of what we read in the Old Testament, for sure, is just a regurgitated desire to manipulate God into carrying out good old frontier justice upon a people whose crime was only to be related to the "fathers" who persecuted, killed, raped, et al their "fathers" (and mothers, surely).
It is equal to the unfounded claim by African-Americans, for example, of blaming each and every American white person for the unforgivable sin of slavery. Notwithstanding that African tribes enslaved other African tribe members for eons, there is a large population of white Americans whose ancestors entered America long after the civil war ended.
Why should people suffer punishment for something they did not do? This question is swept under the rug because the group that feels injustice (a "han" in Korean and "hen" in Chinese) that can never be assuaged until the last drop of the offenders' (whatever group becomes available as a target) blood is shed.
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My next question is: do we really want to give credence to a God who's whole purpose in our life is to foment war and bloodshed?
Apparently so, because the message I hear so often from the pulpit is anti-human group this and anti-human group that.
Satan is running around the globe, rampant like a young hungry lion. We must gird ourselves with weapons (of spirituality, but somehow that idea is left out) and do battle. Unfortunately, this Satan does not appear like a monster in a video game, but we perceive his minions as our next door neighbor. And, spurred on by a religious fever of self-righteousness and hate, we slaughter our neighbor (for both his good and ours) in the name of this God. "We killed Satan! We're doing God's work! Hallelujah!"
But if God really wanted this Satan dead, what does he need humans for? "Why does God need a space ship?" asked Captain Kirk of the Entity claiming to be God.
Put a face on Satan, and you will find it human.
The only Satan that wants people to be anti-God, anti-human, anti-everything that is good and right in the world is human. Nothing supernatural about it. We are, singularly and collectively, the Satan and the anti-Christ: towards each other and towards the God that is unknowable.
The Devil likes to tempt us in our weak moments. Christ fasted 40 days and was weak in the flesh but He knew how to stay strong in the Spirit by resisting with the Word of God. It did this to show the way even in extreme circumstances if need be as is the case of prisoners of war or the destitute. By resisting the Devil He was bringing the body under self control rather than letting the flesh have free reign. One of the fruit of the Spirit is self control. It is by the Spirit that one can find more satisfaction in the things of the Spirit rather than in the things of the flesh/self.
It is written:
EPH 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil.
EPH 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
EPH 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
The scripture says that the pride of life, the lust of the eye, and the lust of the flesh are the sins of the world. By the Spirit of the Word we can overcome the "inordinate desires" of the flesh that can lead to adultery, fornication or even obesity. Spiritual discontent is at the root of all these problems and the Devil will at times resist attempts to free oneself by fasting or prayer and study of the Word of God for the sincere purpose of wanting Gods will in your life. Theological reasons of study are only for curiosity and contrary debate reasons, not sincere seeking. Such a student will receive nothing from the Lord.
Not only do some folks take the bible literally, but they also try to apply ancient languages with meanings appropriate to a culture that is 2000 years to our current times.
Not only do some folks take the bible literally, but they also try to apply ancient languages with meanings appropriate to a culture that is 2000 years to our current times.
The truth of God's Word transcends time.
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