Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Try giving that advice to the theologians who are quite knowledgeable concerning both the Old and New Testament and who will tell you that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. Try telling that to Dr. Robert Dean who is a sought after Bible teacher and whose study on the book of Revelation you dismissed out of hand as garbage without even making any effort to find out what the study had to say.
Again, I care nothing of these alleged scholars alleged credentials...Anyone with a Doctorates can lie and sooth one's itching ears...So, there words mean nothing if not based on Truth...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Now here is some advice for you. Passages on some particular doctrine which are less clear must be understood in the light of passages which are clear. Biblical revelation is progressive. What was only hinted at in the Old Testament, or not even revealed, is brought to light in the New Testament. The New Testament is clear that the believer goes to heaven when he dies.
Soul sleep is not Biblical.
Neither the OT nor the NT says much regarding where one goes after death, however, it says much regarding the Resurrection...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Speaking of the Old Testament, the Holy of holies in the tabernacle, and later in the temple (Old Testament), was separated from the holy place by a veil. The Holy of holies in the tabernacle represented the real Holy of holies in heaven. When the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom by God Himself when Jesus died, this signified that heaven was now open for believers in Jesus Christ.
Nah, more like it signified that it was open also to the Gentile Nations and not just Israel...Because entreance into the Holy of Holies was only permitted to the Priest, not all the Priests and especially not every Tom, Dick and Harry, but ONLY the Priest administering the Sacrifice...Stop attempting to use the NT to shed light on the OT...This is where your confusion and lack of discernment come from...
Are you purposely twisting what I say? Or are you really that uncomprehending? The passage states clearly that those who are dead in Christ - those are the ones who return with Christ from heaven - will rise (be resurrected) first, and then 1 Thess 4:17 states that those who are alive will be caught up together with those who have returned with Jesus, and they will all be with the Lord forever. During the tribulation they will remain in heaven and return to the earth with Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
Those (speaking of the soul) who have fallen asleep are with Christ in heaven and return with Him from heaven when He comes to catch up the church age believers who are alive on the earth.
Where does it state that they are returning from Heaven?...
Where does it state that they are in Heaven with Yeshau during the Tribulation?...
Again, Luke 16:19-31 has been covered and you have been told what it means. I am not going to go over it again.
This is because you yourself cannot comprehend it's meaning...Yeshua said nothing publicly that was not in a Paralbe...It was designed to hide the meaning from them...Which it has done for you...
Originally Posted by Mike555 The Bible does not teach that the dead are unconscious. The various groups or sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Christadelphians, and others who promote the false teaching of soul sleep like to park themselves in the Old Testament and use those verses to promote that heresy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
And, Mike, you would do well to follow that example...As I've said before, if one is to understand the New Testament and what Yeshua and the Apostles said then one must take the Lamp of the OT and shine it onto the NT in order to ascertain the meaning of the NT
Just for the record folks...I do not belong to any of the sects [nor a cult] that Mike mentioned above.
I'm just a student of the written Word who God called out of darkness into His marvelous light.
I USE to believe in ET, going to heaven/hell myself til I studied the WHOLE counsel of God; not just the NT.
And Richard it correct. Mike likes to fault us for studying the OT, but guess what...Messiah, and His apostles taught from the OT.
How do we know this? The NT hadn't been written yet.
So what is the purpose of the NT? It's to expound on the OT.
"The New is in the Old concealed, the Old in in the NEW revealed."
Messiah explain/taught EVERYTHING from the OT.
He quoted the OT 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the OT (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47).
He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the OT as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the OT and considered it “the oracles of God.”
The O T in hundreds of places predicted the events of the NT; and is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the OT.
Matter of fact both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.
Messiah constantly reminded ppl of "what is written" and talked about "the Law and the Prophets."
That's called the OT, Mike.
Paul constantly referred to and taught from the OT.
Just how important is the OT?
Isa 8:20 To the law [first 5 books] and to the testimony:[Psalms, Prov. prophetic books] if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
It wasn't until I began to compare the Old and the New that I began to have light in me.
Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
God's Word is not just the NT, Mike and it's not just the NT that gives us light.
Again, I care nothing of these alleged scholars alleged credentials...Anyone with a Doctorates can lie and sooth one's itching ears...So, there words mean nothing if not based on Truth...
Neither the OT nor the NT says much regarding where one goes after death, however, it says much regarding the Resurrection...
Nah, more like it signified that it was open also to the Gentile Nations and not just Israel...Because entreance into the Holy of Holies was only permitted to the Priest, not all the Priests and especially not every Tom, Dick and Harry, but ONLY the Priest administering the Sacrifice...Stop attempting to use the NT to shed light on the OT...This is where your confusion and lack of discernment come from...
You would accuse theologians of lying as an excuse to disregard what they say and continue to promote heresy. It seems that you care nothing for the truth.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
In twain - In two pieces or parts. This was the time of day when the priest was burning incense in the holy place, and it is probable that he witnessed it. The most holy place has been usually considered as a type of heaven, and the tearing of the veil to signify that the way to heaven was now open to all - the great High Priest, the Lord Jesus, being about to enter in as the forerunner of his people. However, about the design of the tearing of the veil, the Scriptures are silent, and conjecture is useless. Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
Wesley's Notes
27:51 Immediately upon his death, while the sun was still darkened, the veil of the temple, which separated the holy of holies from the court of the priests, though made of the richest and strongest tapestry, was rent in two from the top to the bottom: so that while the priest was ministering at the golden altar (it being the time of the sacrifice) the sacred oracle, by an invisible power was laid open to full view: God thereby signifying the speedy removal of the veil of the Jewish ceremonies the casting down the partition wall, so that the Jews and Gentiles were now admitted to equal privileges, and the opening a way through the veil of his flesh for all believers into the most holy place. And the earth was shaken - There was a general earthquake through the whole globe, though chiefly near Jerusalem: God testifying thereby his wrath against the Jewish nation, for the horrid impiety they were committing. Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
In the church-age both Jew and Gentile are one in Christ and go to heaven which is open to the beiever as signified by the tearing of the veil in the temple.
The New Testament does shed light on the Old Testament.
Now, I will go back to what I have said before. It is pointless trying to get through to you, as you simply ignore everything which is said to you. You have no interest in the truth but simply wish to argue. You attempt to strengthen your arguments with the use of insults and putdowns such as accusations of not using reason and logic. You have twisted things which I have said. You like to call people 'dim', though you haven't used that one so far on this thread.
You are very lacking in understanding of the Scriptures. More than adequate proof has been given which shows that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. If you are unwilling to acknowledge that, then it's your problem.
Just for the record folks...I do not belong to any of the sects [nor a cult] that Mike mentioned above.
I'm just a student of the written Word who God called out of darkness into His marvelous light.
I USE to believe in ET, going to heaven/hell myself til I studied the WHOLE counsel of God; not just the NT.
And Richard it correct. Mike likes to fault us for studying the OT, but guess what...Messiah, and His apostles taught from the OT.
How do we know this? The NT hadn't been written yet.
So what is the purpose of the NT? It's to expound on the OT.
"The New is in the Old concealed, the Old in in the NEW revealed."
Messiah explain/taught EVERYTHING from the OT.
He quoted the OT 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the OT (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47).
He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the OT as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the OT and considered it “the oracles of God.”
The O T in hundreds of places predicted the events of the NT; and is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the OT.
Matter of fact both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.
Messiah constantly reminded ppl of "what is written" and talked about "the Law and the Prophets."
That's called the OT, Mike.
Paul constantly referred to and taught from the OT.
Just how important is the OT?
Isa 8:20 To the law [first 5 books] and to the testimony:[Psalms, Prov. prophetic books] if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
It wasn't until I began to compare the Old and the New that I began to have light in me.
Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
God's Word is not just the NT, Mike and it's not just the NT that gives us light.
What I told the other poster applies to you as well. You are lacking in understanding of the Scriptures. You do not rightly divide them. You refuse to listen. You like to use insults and putdowns in an attempt to strengthen your arguments.
I fault no one for studying the Old Testament. It is a part of the word of God. It is not in opposition to the New Testament. But the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament. Divine revelation is progressive. What is not clearly revealed, or not revealed at all in the Old Testament is seen more clearly in the New Testament. The destination of both the believer and the unbeliever is more clearly seen in the New Testament.
The Bible is clear that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. The Bible does not teach soul sleep or annihiliation of the unbeliever.
More than adequate proof has been given which proofs that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. If you refuse to acknowledge that fact, that is your problem.
I will go back to what I said before. There is no point in wasting my time on trying to get through to you. You prefer your bias rather then truth. Keep your bias.
John 11- 21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
It seems to me that Martha didn't believe that her brother was living in paradise, she thought he was dead and would not live again until the resurrection
.
You would accuse theologians of lying as an excuse to disregard what they say and continue to promote heresy. It seems that you care nothing for the truth.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
In twain - In two pieces or parts. This was the time of day when the priest was burning incense in the holy place, and it is probable that he witnessed it. The most holy place has been usually considered as a type of heaven, and the tearing of the veil to signify that the way to heaven was now open to all - the great High Priest, the Lord Jesus, being about to enter in as the forerunner of his people. However, about the design of the tearing of the veil, the Scriptures are silent, and conjecture is useless. Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
Wesley's Notes
27:51 Immediately upon his death, while the sun was still darkened, the veil of the temple, which separated the holy of holies from the court of the priests, though made of the richest and strongest tapestry, was rent in two from the top to the bottom: so that while the priest was ministering at the golden altar (it being the time of the sacrifice) the sacred oracle, by an invisible power was laid open to full view: God thereby signifying the speedy removal of the veil of the Jewish ceremonies the casting down the partition wall, so that the Jews and Gentiles were now admitted to equal privileges, and the opening a way through the veil of his flesh for all believers into the most holy place. And the earth was shaken - There was a general earthquake through the whole globe, though chiefly near Jerusalem: God testifying thereby his wrath against the Jewish nation, for the horrid impiety they were committing. Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
In the church-age both Jew and Gentile are one in Christ and go to heaven which is open to the beiever as signified by the tearing of the veil in the temple.
The New Testament does shed light on the Old Testament.
Now, I will go back to what I have said before. It is pointless trying to get through to you, as you simply ignore everything which is said to you. You have no interest in the truth but simply wish to argue. You attempt to strengthen your arguments with the use of insults and putdowns such as accusations of not using reason and logic. You have twisted things which I have said. You like to call people 'dim', though you haven't used that one so far on this thread.
You are very lacking in understanding of the Scriptures. More than adequate proof has been given which shows that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. If you are unwilling to acknowledge that, then it's your problem.
While Messiah was walking the earth the temple in Jerusalem was the center of Jewish religious life.
It was the place where sacrifices and worship were carried out according to the Law of Moses. Here we see the veil separated the Holy of Holiest; the earthly place where God dwelt, from the rest of the temple or the place where man dwelt.
Heb. 9:
1 ¶ Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience
What does this signify? It signifies man was separated from God by sin:
Isa. 59:
1 ¶ Behold, Yahovah's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear
Back in the day only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year to enter into God's presence for all of Israel and make atonement for their sins [See Lev. 16].
And of course the veil was about 60 ft. high and 4" thick. It says horses tied to each side could not pull the veil apart.
So again what was the significance of the veil being rent in two? It signified now the way into the Holy of Holies was open for all ppl, for all time.
It shows us the veil was a symbol of Messiah [John 14:6]. Why? He is the only way to the Father.
Or in other words we can now enter the "Holy of Holies" through our belief in Messiah's work/sacrifice on the cross.
People, I am now done with this thread. I have given more than sufficent proof from the Scriptures that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. And I have given more of my time on this thread than is warranted trying to get through to people who are so biased in favor of the false doctrine of soul sleep that they utterly refuse to see what is right in front of their eyes. Who make every effort to distort the meaning of the passages which clearly show that man's soul is immortal and that the believer goes to heaven when he dies.
For those of you who have understanding and a desire to see that the Bible teaches that the believer goes to heaven at death, simply refer to my posts. I will spend no more of my time on this.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
