Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
...To introduce an objective and subjective dichotomy onto the term 'saved' creates confusion...
Doing so simply divides the word of God correctly. The totality of our salvation, or being "saved", is really not portrayed in scripture as a single one time event. Scripture uses the verb having multiple timing points. Here are a few examples:
Past tense, completed action:
Rom 8:24 for in hope we were saved (Gk: aorist tense, indicative mood), and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it ?
Present Tense:
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved (Gk: present tense, indicative mood), if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Future Tense:
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved (Gk: future tense, indicative mood) from wrath through him.
Clearly, the timing, as well as context, tells us if we should understand the term "saved" objectively (as a past or future event, without yet being experienced), or rather subjectively, as being experienced in the present tense.
Anyway, I don't mean to belabor the point. Can you tell me what those other terms might be that you're thinking of?
"did appear" - does that mean water was in the definition or was used as an example? There's a difference.
Yes, there is and I stand by my statement -- it's part of the defintion.
Quote:
That's not correct. Cornelius was baptized into Christ and received the gift of the Spirit in Acts 10:44. No water necessary.
This verse calls what happened to Cornelius the "falling on...all who heard" of the Holy Spirit -- not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
1- See Cornelius above. Peter in Acts 2:38 says when one is baptized into Christ, that person receives the Spirit. Cornelius received the Spirit dry - indicating that he was baptized into Christ at that point in time.
Yes, one receives the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when they are baptized into Christ. What Cornelius received dry was the gift of tongues of the Holy Spirit. He was not saved thereby.
Quote:
2- Not a metaphor regarding Moses. This tells me you don't understand biblical baptism - because it's not about the substance one is dipped into - it's about the PERSON with whom one chooses to identify himself/herself.
I agree, baptism in water is not about the water, it's about the person.
Quote:
That's not general - I asked for a general definition. The general definition is to dip - and the dipping occurs with the goal of making the object being dipped look like whatever it is being dipped into. Do you at least agree with this?
Not sure. I don't think so, though because when I was baptized into water my goal wasn't to look like water -- it was to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and added to the body of Christ.
Quote:
You mentioned instructions - what instructions?
"Instructions" may not have been the best word to use to convey what I meant. There are at least twelve passages (from Matthew 28:19-20 to 1 Peter 3:21) that deal with the meaning and purpose of baptism in the Christian life.
Quote:
And the red above - exceptions - really? Why in the world would God need an exception for anything? There are no exceptions. When your theology has exceptions, then it may be time to re-examine things. I am not being argumentative or a smart-aleck in saying this.
I don't believe in exceptions myself, but in order to accommodate my brethren who come up with a plethora of hypothetical examples where baptism would be impossible, I posit exceptions.
Doing so simply divides the word of God correctly. The totality of our salvation, or being "saved", is really not portrayed in scripture as a single one time event. Scripture uses the verb having multiple timing points. Here are a few examples:
Past tense, completed action:
Rom 8:24 for in hope we were saved (Gk: aorist tense, indicative mood), and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it ?
Present Tense:
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved (Gk: present tense, indicative mood), if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Future Tense:
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved (Gk: future tense, indicative mood) from wrath through him.
Clearly, the timing, as well as context, tells us if we should understand the term "saved" objectively (as a past or future event, without yet being experienced), or rather subjectively, as being experienced in the present tense.
Anyway, I don't mean to belabor the point. Can you tell me what those other terms might be that you're thinking of?
This is why there are three categories of "Salvation".
Justification - separation from the Penalty of sin. A once and for all act of God of an individual becoming "born again" upon believing on Jesus Christ. Once a church age believer is "sealed" with the Holy Ghost, they can not be lost. What ultimately saves an individual is God's faithfulness.
Sanctification - separation from the Power of sin. An ongoing daily activity of abiding in Christ in the indwelling Holy Spirit separating oneself onto God overcoming the power of sin.
Glorification - a future event in which God will be glorified through us thus glorifying believers with a resurrection body apart from the presence of sin.
What saves an individual from eternal Hell is Justification. Those that believe in Jesus Christ, are freely given eternal life as they are Justified in Christ through his payment to be in the presence of God. (Romans 3,4,5). The sinner saved by Grace is seen as perfect in Jesus Christ as all his sins (past, present, and future) are Judged on that cross 2000 years ago.
No one is saved by Grace and kept by works. Once God has freely given someone Justification he is not going to take it back. He doesn't freely give and then conditionally take back repeatedly. The thief on the cross was not fortunate that he did not have the time to backslide back into hell after he was granted the free gift of eternal life.
Once one has God's Holy Spirit, they have been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ (many verses to support this) and are now a child of God. The faithful will receive rewards. The unfaithful will suffer loss (1 Corinthians 3). All that are before the judgement seat of Christ prior to the millennium are Saved sinners getting what we don't deserve - eternal Damnation - saved only by God's grace (unmerited free gift) as he had compassion for us in our condition.
The rock of offense to many people that they stumble over is that we can never deserve heaven. We can never be good enough to "get" to heaven. We are entirely helpless and dependent upon a man - Jesus Christ to save us from Eternal Judgment. Many are approaching God with the Law submitting to God through Jesus Christ in repentance and the only result from that can be God's condemnation.
Praise the Lord God Father in Jesus Christ for saving us from the fire we were helpless to save ourselves from! Forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ seals the believer with God's perfect righteousness as the sinner is seen as Righteous in Christ the passover lamb.
Apply the blood to the doorpost/heart, and you will not come into condemnation. We are all as the thief on that cross.
This is why there are three categories of "Salvation".
Justification - separation from the Penalty of sin. A once and for all act of God of an individual becoming "born again" upon believing on Jesus Christ...
Let's start with what you define as the first category. Can you give me one or two scriptures to support your definition of justification?
John 1:29-34
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, `After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' 31 "I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." 32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, `He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
This verse calls what happened to Cornelius the "falling on...all who heard" of the Holy Spirit -- not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit was received indicating baptism into Christ had taken place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
Yes, one receives the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when they are baptized into Christ. What Cornelius received dry was the gift of tongues of the Holy Spirit. He was not saved thereby.
So he received the gift of the Spirit but was not saved?? Not accurate.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
I agree, baptism in water is not about the water, it's about the person.
Not sure. I don't think so, though because when I was baptized into water my goal wasn't to look like water -- it was to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and added to the body of Christ.
Right. So why would Christ bother with immersing people in water? He wants to immerse our spirits inside, not our flesh outside.
What is the destination of the flesh? The ground - because of Adam in Genesis 3. The flesh is cursed and destined to return to the ground. So there is no need for Christ to immerse the flesh.
This is why He baptizes in the Spirit and not with water.
I'm not going on too much further - but biblical baptism is about identification with people.
Baptism into Moses is about the people of Israel believeing in Moses enough to follow him through the Red Sea and around in the desert for 40 years as he followed the cloud of God. They never touched water.
Those baptized into John believed his message and was submerged into the water as John required.
Acts 19:2-6
2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Those in this example were baptized into John's baptism. The were believers and followers of John. Then Paul gave them the true message and they were baptized into Jesus. No water. Just a belief in the gospel message where they were willing to be identified with Christ -and they were baptized into Christ and received the gift of the Spirit (baptized into the Spirit), who was sent from heaven. Again - no water.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:9
You don't have to be baptized to be saved but if you aren't baptized you should be. Why wouldn't you want to be?
Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit was received indicating baptism into Christ had taken place.
The Spirit was received only in the sense that they spoke in tongues.
Quote:
So he received the gift of the Spirit but was not saved?? Not accurate.
You're right, that's not accurate. He received a gift of the Holy Spirit not the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is for the purpose of salvation. What Cornelius received was the gift of tongues, not for salvation, but to convince the Jews present that Gentiles were to be included in the body of Christ.
The Spirit was received only in the sense that they spoke in tongues.
You're right, that's not accurate. He received a gift of the Holy Spirit not the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is for the purpose of salvation. What Cornelius received was the gift of tongues, not for salvation, but to convince the Jews present that Gentiles were to be included in the body of Christ.
That's a rather odd reading of Acts 10-11.
Quote:
[Peter said] 43 "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
Clearly verse 44 is connected to verse 43 (and as a side note, baptism does not appear here), so I'm not sure how you read it your way other than to support your belief on this subject.
Furthermore, you have to twist the meaning of Peter's statement "have received the Holy Spirit just as we have" into something substantially different than most would understand it. (c.f. Rom. 8:9b). It's a pretty big stretch to assume Peter is referencing some tongues-only H.S. and not the saving kind (and not making that distinction clear).
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
