Are you Saved if you have not been Baptised? (believer, Moses, sinners)
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Scripture for the bold above? Jesus never did water to anyone. Jesus never instructed anyone to do water.
In every Scripture I provided, there's a "but" between the water baptism and the Spirit baptism. That's a contrast. They are two different events by two different people.
Absolutely, they are two different events by two different people. John's baptism was with water only. The baptism of Jesus is with with water and the Holy Spirit. Do you really need a scripture to spell out for you the meaning of the word "baptism"? It means to submerge, immerse, dip in water. Nothing about Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit changes that meaning. It simply adds the Holy Spirit to baptism (see John 3:5, Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:13).
Absolutely, they are two different events by two different people. John's baptism was with water only. The baptism of Jesus is with with water and the Holy Spirit. Do you really need a scripture to spell out for you the meaning of the word "baptism"? It means to submerge, immerse, dip in water. Nothing about Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit changes that meaning. It simply adds the Holy Spirit to baptism (see John 3:5, Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:13).
I believe if you look it up in a Greek dictionary - the term "water" will not appear.
If the meaning of the term implies the use of water - why does Jesus mention baptism in the Spirit - that's not water? Why does Peter mention baptism into Christ in Acts 2:38? Isn't that a misuse of the term? Paul mentions baptism into Moses in 1 Corinthians 10?
I believe if you look it up in a Greek dictionary - the term "water" will not appear.
Actually the definition I gave a direct quote from Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and the term "water" most definitely did appear.
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If the meaning of the term implies the use of water - why does Jesus mention baptism in the Spirit - that's not water?
Does baptism in the Spirit exclude water? No.
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Why does Peter mention baptism into Christ in Acts 2:38? Isn't that a misuse of the term? Paul mentions baptism into Moses in 1 Corinthians 10?
Because when we are baptized in water we are being baptized into Christ and no, that's not a misuse of the term. Paul mentioning baptism into Moses is using the term "baptism" as a metaphor.
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What is the purpose of baptizing in general?
The purpose of baptizing in general is for the forgiveness of sins, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to be put into Christ, and to be added to the body of Christ, the church. Now, baptism by itself confers none of these. But God confers them on us when we are baptized according to His instructions. Could He confer them without baptism? Absolutely, and probably has on occasion, but those are the exceptions not the rule.
I think you're taking Calvinist teachings a little too far here, or at least using poor wording.
Whether it is a Calvinist teaching or not really should not be relevant here.
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Paul was not saved before he was born - he was saved when he believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Sure, the basis of his salvation had already taken place a couple years before that. You can even argue he was elected to his salvation from eternity past. But he wasn't saved in eternity past.
Here is what the text says:
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (KJV)
Here is a more literal rendition of the text:
2Ti 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages, (YLT)
The text mentions nothing about Paul being saved "when he believed". Nor does the text mention anything about Paul's basis of salvation being "a couple of years before" he believed.
Faith (or believing) is not mentioned in this particular text at all. Actually, faith is excluded by Paul in the following sense:
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
We have to remember that faith, as defined by Jesus, is clearly a required work of the law:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
If this is so, and I believe it is, our faith would be excluded as being the basis from which God's purpose and grace flow. But rather grace is given to us in Christ from "His Own purpose", God's Own purpose, as the text tells us.
Further, "election" is not mentioned in the text, but rather the term "called" is used (Gk: καλεσαντος).
And, the terms "saved" and "called" are said to be according to God's purpose and grace that was given (Gk: aorist tense) to Paul, in Christ, before the times of the ages.
This text may not sit well with many doctrines that are held today, however the text clearly tells us: Paul was saved and called, at least objectively so, according to the purpose and grace of God, and that this purpose and grace was given to Paul, in Christ, before the times of the ages.
I really don't see how this text can be interpreted any other way. It is simply what the text tells us.
Actually the definition I gave a direct quote from Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and the term "water" most definitely did appear.
"did appear" - does that mean water was in the definition or was used as an example? There's a difference.
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
Does baptism in the Spirit exclude water? No.
That's not correct. Cornelius was baptized into Christ and received the gift of the Spirit in Acts 10:44. No water necessary.
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
Because when we are baptized in water we are being baptized into Christ and no, that's not a misuse of the term. Paul mentioning baptism into Moses is using the term "baptism" as a metaphor.
1- See Cornelius above. Peter in Acts 2:38 says when one is baptized into Christ, that person receives the Spirit. Cornelius received the Spirit dry - indicating that he was baptized into Christ at that point in time.
2- Not a metaphor regarding Moses. This tells me you don't understand biblical baptism - because it's not about the substance one is dipped into - it's about the PERSON with whom one chooses to identify himself/herself.
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
The purpose of baptizing in general is for the forgiveness of sins, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to be put into Christ, and to be added to the body of Christ, the church. Now, baptism by itself confers none of these. But God confers them on us when we are baptized according to His instructions. Could He confer them without baptism? Absolutely, and probably has on occasion, but those are the exceptions not the rule.
That's not general - I asked for a general definition. The general definition is to dip - and the dipping occurs with the goal of making the object being dipped look like whatever it is being dipped into. Do you at least agree with this?
You mentioned instructions - what instructions?
And the red above - exceptions - really? Why in the world would God need an exception for anything? There are no exceptions. When your theology has exceptions, then it may be time to re-examine things. I am not being argumentative or a smart-aleck in saying this.
OK AlabamaStorm, we'll have to disagree, even though I approve of what you say on other threads. I think you hold a position in this instance that almost no one holds, including most Calvinists.
Your one proof text is a little underwhelming in light of the massive evidence in the NT which indicates salvation as occurring in the temporal realm at a point in one's earthly life.
Again, if you want to argue predestination (or election or calling) unto salvation before the world began, fine. But the salvation itself happens when a person places faith in Christ.
I have heard it both ways. I have heard that even if you give your heart to Jesus and profess His Name as The Messiah, if you have not been Baptised you still are not Saved
I have heard that Baptism is merely a public display of Faith and is not required for Salvation, because Jesus already took care of that on The Cross
What are your views on this?
What if it is Salvation >produces> Obedience?
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Dead rocks are enlivened.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I think, even the faith is not of yourselves. The faith is the gift of God.
Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Joh 6:28-29 NASB]
So, can Saved produce (willful?) rebellion?
But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity." [Act 8:20-23 NASB]
Ultra-Dispensationalists throw out Baptism and the Lord's Supper - just about everything but the Prison Epistles. Lots to think about.
For me, I certainly would not have been Baptized BEFORE I believed in Jesus and there is no way I would have rejected baptism after it.
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
...Your one proof text is a little underwhelming... salvation itself happens when a person places faith in Christ.
What I think you're doing is perhaps confusing the objective truth of our salvation in Christ with it's subjective manifestation.
If we continue with Paul's theme, we read next:
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Objectively, our salvation has always existed and was always present in the eternal Christ, even before the foundation of the world. Otherwise there would be really nothing now to be made manifest and brought to light.
This "manifestation" and bringing "to light" are the subjective reality, of our objective salvation, that we're now experiencing, through faith, in time.
What's confusing is that you're using the term "saved" in a way the Bible doesn't use it* in order to fit into a system, and thus it becomes blurred with other terms like "predestined" or "called". I understand where you're going, but I just want to be clear on terminology. You can argue God 'chose' us to be saved before the creation of the world, but it doesn't change the fact that we get saved here and now. To introduce an objective and subjective dichotomy onto the term 'saved' creates confusion. We have other terms to explain what you're getting at.
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