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I shared that all is out of God (Romans 11) and that I believe that God created the experience of evil ultmately for our benefit. I believe that there are many things that we learn and develop from the experience as revealed in the scriptures. God bless and peace.
Which is the same thing I said you said, isn't it?
We become what we focus on, Shana. And if the God you focus on created evil supposedly to serve a good purpose, then that is what you would become... a creator of evil. I absolutely do not think that is true of you, so it seems you MUST divorce that aspect of God from God in your mind.
Pleroo, my focus is on the realization that God is love and that all that He does stems from this love. All that God does is for a higher purpose and no, I am not God and nor do I understand all of His ways. I am not supposed to. But I do understand that all is out of God including the experience of evil. God does not want us to do evil, as it is not a part of His nature. He does, however, use the experience of evil for our benefit, as in the case of the thorn in Paul's flesh. Did Jesus do evil as a result, when He understood that God the Father handed Him over to be tortured and killed? No, but He trusted in the Father anyway, and knew the outcome, even though He had to go through the experience of evil that was done to Him. He benefitted from it although He suffered. God bless and peace.
Pleroo, my focus is on the realization that God is love and that all that He does stems from this love. All that God does is for a higher purpose and no, I am not God and nor do I understand all of His ways. I am not supposed to. But I do understand that all is out of God including the experience of evil. God does not want us to do evil, as it is not a part of His nature. He does, however, use the experience of evil for our benefit, as in the case of the thorn in Paul's flesh. Did Jesus do evil as a result, when He understood that God the Father handed Him over to be killed? No, but He trusted in the Father anyway, and knew the outcome, even though He had to go through the experience of evil that was done to Him. God bless and peace.
But we have to take it back further than simply allowing Jesus to suffer at the hands of evil men. Because according to your point of view, it was God's intended purpose that men would do that evil in the first place. According to your beliefs, God WANTED evil to be done; God created men to be and do evil; and God WANTED Jesus to have to die at the hands of evil men. Because, supposedly, that was the only way God could accomplish good.
However as I see it, since Jesus did NOT create evil and came to destroy the work of the devil, and Jesus is the exact representation of who God is, then it is apparent that God also did not/does not create evil.
But we have to take it back further than simply allowing Jesus to suffer at the hands of evil men. Because according to your point of view, it was God's intended purpose that men would do that evil in the first place.
Right.
Quote:
According to your beliefs, God WANTED evil to be done; God created men to be and do evil; and God WANTED Jesus to have to die at the hands of evil men. Because, supposedly, that was the only way God could accomplish good.
This is the way that God accomplished the good. He knew what would happen. Prophecies had to come true. Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation or disruption of the world. Jesus knew who would betray Him.
Quote:
However as I see it, since Jesus did NOT create evil and came to destroy the work of the devil, and Jesus is the exact representation of who God is, then it is apparent that God also did not/does not create evil.
Jesus is the exact represention of the nature of God. God Himself tells us that created evil (and I believe the OT statements given by inspired men). Evil in the hands of God is not the same as evil in the hands of man. Jesus came to destroy the works of satan and and satan was also created through Him. God knew what satan would do. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-17-2013 at 06:21 PM..
But we have to take it back further than simply allowing Jesus to suffer at the hands of evil men. Because according to your point of view, it was God's intended purpose that men would do that evil in the first place. According to your beliefs, God WANTED evil to be done; God created men to be and do evil; and God WANTED Jesus to have to die at the hands of evil men. Because, supposedly, that was the only way God could accomplish good.
However as I see it, since Jesus did NOT create evil and came to destroy the work of the devil, and Jesus is the exact representation of who God is, then it is apparent that God also did not/does not create evil.
I am very pleased with your continuing efforts on behalf of the lurkers , Pleroo. They are not trapped in an emotional stronghold of undiscriminating belief in the OT. They are willing to properly divide the scriptures. They do NOT believe in rote blind obedience to the fiction that ALL of it is 100% God's word. Fortunately there are many lurkers in the forum.
For those who do believe in the magical "100% God's word" fiction . . . debating with them can be very frustrating, Pleroo. Regrettably, try as we might . . . we can never logically convince those who do NOT believe the Bible is corrupted by the veil of ignorance over it. They are immune to logic and reason and unable to rationally understand or explain what they emotionally believe by rote, IMO. They appear to be emotionally handicapped and closed off from the truth. Fortunately, it doesn't matter that much in the end because they DO "love God and each other."
You say that the work of satan is to destroy that within us which needs destroying. Then you say that the work of the devil (destroying what needs destroying) needs to be destroyed within us. I'm going to keep harping on this, I suppose, because I don't understand how you do not see that this is completely contradictory.
Again, with my piano comparison. My piano teacher was INSISTENT that whenever I made a mistake while practicing a piece I must stop immediately and start over, because she knew that what we practice is what we become good at. If we practice "mistakes" (EVIL), that is what we become proficient at. Why would God intend for us to practice something (EVIL) that God did not intend for us to become?
So, evil serves NO GOOD purpose to EITHER PARTY, correct? And yet, you have been consistently saying that evil serves God's good purpose... that people need to learn from their mistakes and from suffering. So in this scenario, based on your beliefs, what happened should in some way benefit BOTH the perpetrator and the child.
Hi Pleroo,
satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. Obviously, this happens in different ways.
Paul received a thorn in the flesh (literally or figuratively, it makes no difference) that God allowed and did not remove. Although Paul asked God to remove it, God did not. Jesus asked for the cup before him to be taken away, but it wasn't.
The natural man fails at resisting the devil. The temptations come (lust, greed, hate, etc) and he falls. Not necessarily always, but he has a hard time at it.
When God draws us to Him, and gives us of His Spirit, we receive faith to believe, and therefore to overcome. This is how Jesus destroys the works of the devil, because when the devil comes to tempt us, by trusting in God (and God's Love) he is "destroyed" because he can do nothing when we are trusting in the Father.
As regarding the piano lessons, we are not asked to practice making mistakes. We are called to trust in God.
As regarding child abuser and child, we can trust that all of what comes to pass will ultimately be for the good of everyone, because God loves us. We can't see the future, or what's up around the bend, but He does. And He knows how to bring it round right.
Again: God allows man his free will (atheists believe very strongly in free will, btw). Yet this free will gets man "beaten up" by satan, because his nature is to succomb to the temptations.
When man is brought to the point of seeing the futility of his efforts, and when God draws him to Himself, man is given faith to cry out to God, to be saved, and to learn that overcoming evil is done by trusting in God's Spirit. Then and only then, will he learn victory.
But we have to take it back further than simply allowing Jesus to suffer at the hands of evil men. Because according to your point of view, it was God's intended purpose that men would do that evil in the first place. According to your beliefs, God WANTED evil to be done; God created men to be and do evil; and God WANTED Jesus to have to die at the hands of evil men. Because, supposedly, that was the only way God could accomplish good.
However as I see it, since Jesus did NOT create evil and came to destroy the work of the devil, and Jesus is the exact representation of who God is, then it is apparent that God also did not/does not create evil.
I wouldn't say that God wanted Jesus to die. I think it's more accurate to say that God knew Jesus would die. Because God knew/knows what's in man's nature (man was made that way) and that man cannot overcome temptation to sin on his own.
I am very pleased with your continuing efforts on behalf of the lurkers , Pleroo. They are not trapped in an emotional stronghold of undiscriminating belief in the OT. They are willing to properly divide the scriptures. They do NOT believe in rote blind obedience to the fiction that ALL of it is 100% God's word. Fortunately there are many lurkers in the forum.
For those who do believe in the magical "100% God's word" fiction . . . debating with them can be very frustrating, Pleroo. Regrettably, try as we might . . . we can never logically convince those who do NOT believe the Bible is corrupted by the veil of ignorance over it. They are immune to logic and reason and unable to rationally understand or explain what they emotionally believe by rote, IMO. They appear to be emotionally handicapped and closed off from the truth. Fortunately, it doesn't matter that much in the end because they DO "love God and each other."
I can't understand the need to attack the posters by saying that they are immune to logic and reason, unable to rationally understand or explain what they believe by rote, saying that they are emotionally handicapped and closed off from the truth just because we have a different understanding and perspective, instead of discussing the topic. So sad. Your view or perspective is not "the truth". It is just your view or perspective. I don't plan to discuss this further with you Mystic. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-18-2013 at 05:05 AM..
satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. Obviously, this happens in different ways.
Paul received a thorn in the flesh (literally or figuratively, it makes no difference) that God allowed and did not remove. Although Paul asked God to remove it, God did not. Jesus asked for the cup before him to be taken away, but it wasn't.
The natural man fails at resisting the devil. The temptations come (lust, greed, hate, etc) and he falls. Not necessarily always, but he has a hard time at it.
When God draws us to Him, and gives us of His Spirit, we receive faith to believe, and therefore to overcome. This is how Jesus destroys the works of the devil, because when the devil comes to tempt us, by trusting in God (and God's Love) he is "destroyed" because he can do nothing when we are trusting in the Father.
As regarding the piano lessons, we are not asked to practice making mistakes. We are called to trust in God.
As regarding child abuser and child, we can trust that all of what comes to pass will ultimately be for the good of everyone, because God loves us. We can't see the future, or what's up around the bend, but He does. And He knows how to bring it round right.
Again: God allows man his free will (atheists believe very strongly in free will, btw). Yet this free will gets man "beaten up" by satan, because his nature is to succomb to the temptations.
When man is brought to the point of seeing the futility of his efforts, and when God draws him to Himself, man is given faith to cry out to God, to be saved, and to learn that overcoming evil is done by trusting in God's Spirit. Then and only then, will he learn victory.
Hi Pleroo,
satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. Obviously, this happens in different ways.
Paul received a thorn in the flesh (literally or figuratively, it makes no difference) that God allowed and did not remove. Although Paul asked God to remove it, God did not. Jesus asked for the cup before him to be taken away, but it wasn't.
The natural man fails at resisting the devil. The temptations come (lust, greed, hate, etc) and he falls. Not necessarily always, but he has a hard time at it.
When God draws us to Him, and gives us of His Spirit, we receive faith to believe, and therefore to overcome. This is how Jesus destroys the works of the devil, because when the devil comes to tempt us, by trusting in God (and God's Love) he is "destroyed" because he can do nothing when we are trusting in the Father.
As regarding the piano lessons, we are not asked to practice making mistakes. We are called to trust in God.
As regarding child abuser and child, we can trust that all of what comes to pass will ultimately be for the good of everyone, because God loves us. We can't see the future, or what's up around the bend, but He does. And He knows how to bring it round right.
Again: God allows man his free will (atheists believe very strongly in free will, btw). Yet this free will gets man "beaten up" by satan, because his nature is to succomb to the temptations.
When man is brought to the point of seeing the futility of his efforts, and when God draws him to Himself, man is given faith to cry out to God, to be saved, and to learn that overcoming evil is done by trusting in God's Spirit. Then and only then, will he learn victory.
Peace,
brian
What you are calling the works of the devil Brian is really the works of God. If God is putting the devil up to steal, kill and destroy, then God is no different to the devil,and if I was the devil I would be saying to God what's your problem with me ?,you put me up to steal,kill and destroy. I wish you understood that if God is causing the devil to do the most terrible of evil, then God is as guilty as the devil for thinking evil. As a man/God thinks in his heart so is he. The devil found nothing in Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is the exact representation of who God IS.
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