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Of course he does. He wasn't baptized. But he was saved. If you're going to make an absolute statement that baptism is necessary, there are no exceptions.
This is what I was pointing out...If it is neccesary for one then it is for all...
So when we get to Heaven we will say, "Worthy is the Lamb, and water"?
Also, I read one of the posts in here and I immediately remember something Jesus once said. He said that those who believe in Him, out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living water. He also once told His disciples that they were clean because of the words He spoke to them. In another instance Jesus referred to His words as spirit and life. So ultimately this takes us back to Jesus saying that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. This water is not natural water. It's the words of the Gospel. What is the Gospel? That Jesus has taken all of our sins upon the cross, and those who believe on Him, will receive His rigtheousness.
A perfect example again is going back, and looking at Peter preaching to Cornelius and his house. The people were listening to Peter, and while Peter was still speaking (obviously they were hearing Peter's words and changing their mind as they were listening, as they were being spiritually cleaned by the words they were hearing), the Holy Spirit fell upon them all. This is an excellent example of rivers of living water coming from our bellies. Also an example of being born of water and the Spirit. It's this baptism that saves us, not our physical act of being dumped in water. The dumping into water is just an expression of our faith. Much like taking communion is just an expression of our faith.
I think the Gospel is much more than that...I think it is connected with the Tanakh and the Prophets and what the people of the OT were looking forward to...I think the Good News is that the long awaited Messiah had arrived...Remember that Yeshua said Himself that He was only sent to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel...He also said that His sheep knew His voice and would respond...He also said that He had other sheep that were not of that fold and that He had to bring them too and that both of these folds would be one with one Sheppard...
Of course he does. He wasn't baptized. But he was saved. If you're going to make an absolute statement that baptism is necessary, there are no exceptions.
Even if I was making an absolute statement that baptism is necessary (which I am not), the thief would still have nothing to do with baptism since he was saved before baptism was even instituted.
So when we get to Heaven we will say, "Worthy is the Lamb, and water"?
Of course not! Don't be ridiculous. It's not the water that saves -- it's God!
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Also, I read one of the posts in here and I immediately remember something Jesus once said. He said that those who believe in Him, out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living water. He also once told His disciples that they were clean because of the words He spoke to them. In another instance Jesus referred to His words as spirit and life. So ultimately this takes us back to Jesus saying that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. This water is not natural water. It's the words of the Gospel. What is the Gospel? That Jesus has taken all of our sins upon the cross, and those who believe on Him, will receive His rigtheousness.
While I agree that "living water" is not natural water, there is nothing in John 3:5 to indicate that the water Jesus speaks of there is anything but natural water.
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A perfect example again is going back, and looking at Peter preaching to Cornelius and his house. The people were listening to Peter, and while Peter was still speaking (obviously they were hearing Peter's words and changing their mind as they were listening, as they were being spiritually cleaned by the words they were hearing), the Holy Spirit fell upon them all. This is an excellent example of rivers of living water coming from our bellies. Also an example of being born of water and the Spirit. It's this baptism that saves us, not our physical act of being dumped in water. The dumping into water is just an expression of our faith. Much like taking communion is just an expression of our faith.
The point is that "the Holy Spirit fell upon them all." He did not indwell them for the purpose of regeneration and salvation. That didn't occur until they were born again of water and the Spirit in Acts 10:48.
The 'thief' better translated as 'malfactor' (or perhaps insurrectionist) was under the old covenant still, but even so, before Christ's death, true believers were saved by faith, not by works of the Law. It is the same kind of faith that saves today, without reference to ritual baptism. Thus, the criminal does actually factor into the discussion. His salvation was secured in the same way that anyone's salvation is secured, but faith without reference to any ritual, including that of water baptism.
But, I'm a baptist (for lack of any other 'label) so why would I say that there is no need for the ritual of water immersion? Because it's simply not in keeping with the understanding that the righteous from all ages are saved the same way, by faith without reference to any kind of ritual follow-up. Just as the Jews were not actually saved by the shedding of blood from bulls and goats (Hebrews 10:4) because it could not take away sins. Neither where the those that were counted righteous before the law justified through water baptism, even as we are still not justified through water baptism. Jesus' death did not change how people are saved (justified). Baptism is a public show of what has already taken place, symbolic as it is, it is a very meaningful symbol. It is also a very public confession of belief, normally done in a very public place; a riverside, reflection pools, the seaside, etc.
There were a variety of baptisms that were performed prior to the Acts 2 baptisms. Otherwise the apostles wouldn't have understood what Jesus was talking about when he instructed them to 'make disciples of all nations, baptizing them....' Just three years prior, Jesus took part of a public baptism by John the Baptizer, and his was a baptism of repentance. Though Jesus was baptized during John's ministry, Jesus needed no such baptism for repentance, rather his was baptism of commission, the start of his public ministry which is a second type prior to Acts 2. There was also the 'baptism' to cleanse the hands before eating. There was also the ritual 'washing' or baptism of the priests before entering into the Holy place and the Holy of Holies. There was the ritual washing or 'baptism' of those that were cured of various skin diseases that were lumped into lepersy. So baptism was not a strange thing. Also notice that the Jewish leaders recognized that baptism of believers was the crowning point of their blasphemy because it was the public demonstration of their discipleship into that new, heretical Jewish cult they called 'the way' at the time. It wasn't until later that they were called 'christian'.
That is why it is careful to let scriptures speak for themselves.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, ....... Jesus includes baptism in being saved
but whoever does not believe will be condemned...... Jesus excludes baptism in being condemned
One can either just accept what is said or use human reason to obstruct what Jesus said like what Calvin did
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Originally Posted by Richard1965
And what exactly did Calvin do?...
He did what you seem to be guilty of .... Calvin preferred human reason over acknowledging that both are the truth.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, ....... Jesus includes baptism in being saved
but whoever does not believe will be condemned...... Jesus excludes baptism in being condemned
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"
and this is also the truth:
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The heresy of Calvin is that it attempts to refute Jesus by saying "Nu-uh" to verses like Mark 16:16, John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:20-21
Even if I was making an absolute statement that baptism is necessary (which I am not), the thief would still have nothing to do with baptism since he was saved before baptism was even instituted.
Not true. The act of baptism was going on when John was preaching about Jesus. Yet even then the actual physical act of going under water means nothing in itself. It was the words John was speaking that mattered the most. John prepared the people for Jesus. He was washing them with his words.
That is why the thief didn't need to be dumped in water, that was just an outward affection to show what has happened on the inside.
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
While I agree that "living water" is not natural water, there is nothing in John 3:5 to indicate that the water Jesus speaks of there is anything but natural water.
I don't know about that. It seems everything Jesus was speaking of went beyond natural understanding. Yet let me ask you this question. What is it about the water that makes it so special? I mean we know the Holy Spirit empowers us, and confirms who we are in Christ. What is it about the act of being dumped in water, in and of itself, is special?
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The point is that "the Holy Spirit fell upon them all." He did not indwell them for the purpose of regeneration and salvation. That didn't occur until they were born again of water and the Spirit in Acts 10:48.
Look at what Acts 10 44 says...
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message."
You see there it is. They were listening to his words. What this shows us is the words Peter were speaking, was changing their minds about who they were, that instead of focusing on their effort (seeing themselves as sinful and nothing they could do would cover that up), they were now beginning to trust in Jesus. They now have a clean conscious before God because Jesus is now their righteousness. So the message Peter spoke, was living water, and they were baptized when they received the message in their hearts. This is the necessary baptism, putting your trust in Jesus. Changing your mind that you can please God with your works, because in ourselves we are utterly sinful.
The act of being dumped in water is like attending a graduation ceremony. Do you need to actually attend the ceremony to graduate? No, but you do it to celebrate your graduation. It's wonderful, it's joyous to be baptized in water, but it's not necessary. Think about this, if water baptism (the ceremony) was necessary, that would be accounted as a work that we did. So you could say that I have a right to be with God because of what Jesus did, and what I did in going under water. So no, the act of going under water isn't necessary, but it's wonderful to celebrate!
He did what you seem to be guilty of .... Calvin preferred human reason over acknowledging that both are the truth.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, ....... Jesus includes baptism in being saved
but whoever does not believe will be condemned...... Jesus excludes baptism in being condemned
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"
and this is also the truth:
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The heresy of Calvin is that it attempts to refute Jesus by saying "Nu-uh" to verses like Mark 16:16, John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:20-21
Calvin was not a heretic for one...You do not understand Systematic Theology for another...
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