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Not true. The act of baptism was going on when John was preaching about Jesus. Yet even then the actual physical act of going under water means nothing in itself. It was the words John was speaking that mattered the most. John prepared the people for Jesus. He was washing them with his words.
You are quite right. The act of baptism was going on when John was preaching about Jesus. However, it was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, not the baptism of salvation that Jesus commanded after His death and resurrection.
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That is why the thief didn't need to be dumped in water, that was just an outward affection to show what has happened on the inside.
I agree that the thief didn't need to be baptized. Baptism for salvation was not instituted until 50 days after Jesus death and resurrection. So, it doesn't really matter whether the thief was baptized or not. The fact of the matter is Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day and I belief he was.
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I don't know about that. It seems everything Jesus was speaking of went beyond natural understanding. Yet let me ask you this question. What is it about the water that makes it so special? I mean we know the Holy Spirit empowers us, and confirms who we are in Christ. What is it about the act of being dumped in water, in and of itself, is special?
There's nothing whatsoever special about the water. It's just plain old natural water. No magical properties at all. But the fact is that God promised if we would repent and be baptized for the forgivness of our sins we would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I, for one, take God at His word regarding that promise. It really has nothing to do with the water. It has to do with what God promised if we followed his command.
Wretched.elect;28257691]Baptism does save. The question is what baptism is it that saves, Ritual (dunking in water) or Spiritual (that of the Holy Spirit).
Okay, so we both believe baptism saves. That's a start! You believe we are saved by baptism with the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit regenerates and renews us when we are immersed in water. I believe baptism is the saving event, not the cause of our salvation. So our disagreement is about the water, not baptism.
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It is the Holy Spirit that washes and renews us according to Paul, and not the washing of water. How are we baptized into Christ? Is by the water of the baptistry (or river, lake, etc.) or is it by the Holy Spirit. For there are two types of baptism in the bible, spiritual and ritual, and I believe that the one follows the other. When we are saved, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ, by and from whom we get 'the washing of regeneration and renewing.' Peter even supports this in his 'baptism' passage when he says, 'The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' It's not the ritual baptism of water that saves, rather it is the Spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit.
Peter uses "water" in this passage for a good reason.
Peter very clearly says that eight souls were brought safely through water, and corresponding to THAT, baptism now saves you. He then goes on to tell us how. It is an appeal to God for a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just as Noah and his family were brought safely through the water, we, too, are brought safely through the waters of baptism.
There is only one baptism, not two. The baptism Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:18-20) could only be administrated by men in water. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is administered by Jesus, and as far as I can see, only happened twice in the New Testament.
I don't believe the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit is "baptism with the Holy Spirit." I think they are two completely different events.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit was not for salvation. It was for POWER. It was given to the apostles to empower them to further the gospel and grow the church. The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. They were empowered with the Holy Spirit. They spoke in tongues. Many miracles and wonders were performed by them. Cornelius, also was baptized with the Holy Spirit. He spoke in tongues. Why? To show Peter and his companions that the Gentiles could now be part of the church.
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Let us look as the conversion of Cornelius the Roman Centurion. How did Peter know that salvation had come to the Gentiles? Peter and the other Jewish believers with him knew that the Holy Spirit, who is given at the time of salvation, had been give to the Gentiles present at Cornelius' house as evidenced by the speaking of tongues. Having noted that the promise of salvation as noted by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had been accomplished in the Gentiles, Peter then asks those believing Jews, 'Can anyone withhold water fro baptizing these people, how have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?' (Acts 10:47) It was not the baptizing by water that saved Cornelius and his household but the spiritual baptism of and by the Holy Spirit that evidenced their salvation which led to the outward ritual baptism by water welcoming them into the Church.
Already addressed above. Cornelius was not saved when he was baptized with the Holy Spirit. He was saved the same way everyone else was/is. He needed to submit to immersion in water.
And before you ask, yes, people who are not saved can have the Holy Spirit. Caiaphas the priest was plotting to kill Jesus, yet he prophesied. Saul, while plotting to kill David, prophesied. Even a little donkey spoke in tongues. God uses the sinner and saved alike to accomplish His purposes.
The apostle Paul needed to be immersed in water to have his sins washed away.
When the Jews on Pentecost asked, "What must we do?" Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
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Water baptism, or ritual baptism, then is simply the outward symbolic gesture of something that is taking place in the spiritual realm. Water washing is not the intended goal, but spiritual cleansing. Thus, it is not the ritual baptism that matters anything aside from the public declaration of the dedication of one's life to Christ. Rather, it is the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit bringing the washing of regeneration and renewal to the believer that matters. But that is not to say that believers should not get themselves baptized, and I love the fact that a believer does not baptize himself but that others baptize them. On the contrary, every believer, who is a disciple of Christ should follow their conversion with a public confession of their dedication of their slavery to Christ with water baptism, which symbolizes their death with Christ and the resurrection to new life in him.
I agree with you that spiritual cleansing is the goal in baptism, and it happens when one is immersed in water. As I said before, baptism is the saving event, not the cause.
No Scripture says that baptism is for the purpose of public declaration. This is the teachings of men. The Scriptures teach that baptism is for the remission of sins (not the cause, but the event).
I would like to point out to you that every example we have in Acts show that believers were baptized IMMEDIATELY. There were no classes to take. There was no special baptism Sunday. It was done IMMEDIATELY. That should speak volumes to everyone.
God bless you,
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 02-16-2013 at 03:08 PM..
SOMEONE please show me in Scripture where the thief was or was not baptized.
We have no way of knowing either way. We don't know anything about this man. We don't know how long he was in prison. We don't know what his crime was. We can speculate till the cows come home, but in the end, we can't say whether the thief was baptized or not. The Scriptures don't say it, so neither should we.
Blessings,
Katie
So Katie what if someone in a North Korean prison camp gets saved and a short time later dies without being baptized. What happens to him?
Follower of X nails it with his question. If ceremonial baptism is needed for one to be saved, you must apply that rule for everyone. The baptism that is necessary, is the one of spiritual value. Being baptized into Jesus death simply means you trust in Jesus' finished work. That you link up with Him, and are born again in His nature. So all you need to ask if ceremonial baptism is necessary, is what if someone dies before finding water to be baptized in?
Of course he does. He wasn't baptized. But he was saved. If you're going to make an absolute statement that baptism is necessary, there are no exceptions.
Where do you read this in the bible? From what I read, we have no idea what he did before he was crucified. I've never understood anyone who states this as fact, when the fact is, no one knows.
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As I've pointed out....the thief on the cross was not baptized. In acts 10:44-48 we see people that were saved prior to baptism. To suggest baptism is necessary is simply wrong. It's heretical, even, as you're suggesting that faith in Christ is not enough.
Yes, you pointed it out, but it is only your opinion. Not fact.
The ones who received the Holy Spirit were gentiles, to show that gentiles in fact can receive the gift. Read it in context. As soon as they did receive the gift though, what did they do? They were baptized. Not like a lot of churches do today... you're saved! Now come back in three weeks and we'll baptize all of you at the same time.
Every other conversion in Acts was AFTER baptism.
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Originally Posted by Richard1965
Thief on the Cross people, thief on the Cross...
Has no bearing on the debate of baptism. He was still under the old law, Jesus had not died for him yet, and no one knows if he was baptized or not.
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
SOMEONE please show me in Scripture where the thief was or was not baptized.
We have no way of knowing either way. We don't know anything about this man. We don't know how long he was in prison. We don't know what his crime was. We can speculate till the cows come home, but in the end, we can't say whether the thief was baptized or not. The Scriptures don't say it, so neither should we.
Alright when it comes to the thief on the cross, I'm puzzled as to why anyone would think he was baptized before being crucified. In fact, in the beginning, he was mocking Christ with the other guy. Would someone who was baptized, be mocking Christ in any way?
Yet all of that is besides the point. I think I can say out of the millions to billions of (and for the sake of the argument) true Christians who've come to know Jesus these past 2,000 years almost, I'm sure there was at least a few of them who didn't have the chance to be baptized in water don't you think?
Even the verse in question, confirms being dumped in water is not what saves you.
Alright when it comes to the thief on the cross, I'm puzzled as to why anyone would think he was baptized before being crucified. In fact, in the beginning, he was mocking Christ with the other guy. Would someone who was baptized, be mocking Christ in any way?
Yet all of that is besides the point. I think I can say out of the millions to billions of (and for the sake of the argument) true Christians who've come to know Jesus these past 2,000 years almost, I'm sure there was at least a few of them who didn't have the chance to be baptized in water don't you think?
Even the verse in question, confirms being dumped in water is not what saves you.
The thief knew an awful lot about Jesus. It's not far fetched to think that he may have been taught about Him. Do you think there have never been any Christians who later get themselves in trouble, and are then upset with Jesus, but then later repent?
My point, as is others, is that one cannot say as a fact that the thief was not baptized. It is purely speculation on their part. Just as saying he was baptized would be pure speculation.
When I was in church and taught about baptism, and I was asked the question of, what if they couldn't be baptized? I always answered that was in God's hands.
Consider Namaan. He was instructed what to do to be cleansed. However, he thought it silly, and had his own idea of what should be done, and went away angry. Not until he did as he was told, to dip in a specific river (Jordan) a specific number of times (7), was he cleansed of his leprosy.
Sometimes man thinks their idea is better. Doesn't make it so.
Whether I believe a person must be baptized to be saved is moot. I do not believe the bible is inerrant. So, most won't even listen to what I have to say, which is fine.
The point still stands. One cannot say as fact that the thief was not baptized.
Well, I agree we can't know for sure whether or not the thief was baptized before crucifixion. (By the way, why do we say he's a thief? The Bible only mentions him as a criminal. He could have been a cold blooded murderer for all we know. Something to think about I suppose, wonder where we get most traditions from in the church.)
As for this topic, I'm actually going to hold off from speaking on it for the time being. Some things came up in my rememberance and study, and I want to fully look into it before I comment again.
So Katie what if someone in a North Korean prison camp gets saved and a short time later dies without being baptized. What happens to him?
Since scriptures tell us that God uses and accepts both ( Mark 16:16 \ John 3:5 and Romans 10:9-10) it isn't a question then.
It then becomes a question as to why certain people look to deny Mark 16:16 \ John 3:5 by looking for scenarios. I found that it's a matter of questioning Jesus for his word that comes from human reasoning due to lack of trust that what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 \ John 3:5 is also the truth.
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You believe we are saved by baptism with the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit regenerates and renews us when we are immersed in water. I believe baptism is the saving event, not the cause of our salvation. So our disagreement is about the water, not baptism.
