The Context of 1 Peter 3:21 (doctrine, beliefs, priest, sin)
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The thief knew an awful lot about Jesus. It's not far fetched to think that he may have been taught about Him. Do you think there have never been any Christians who later get themselves in trouble, and are then upset with Jesus, but then later repent?
My point, as is others, is that one cannot say as a fact that the thief was not baptized. It is purely speculation on their part. Just as saying he was baptized would be pure speculation.
When I was in church and taught about baptism, and I was asked the question of, what if they couldn't be baptized? I always answered that was in God's hands.
Consider Namaan. He was instructed what to do to be cleansed. However, he thought it silly, and had his own idea of what should be done, and went away angry. Not until he did as he was told, to dip in a specific river (Jordan) a specific number of times (7), was he cleansed of his leprosy.
Sometimes man thinks their idea is better. Doesn't make it so.
Whether I believe a person must be baptized to be saved is moot. I do not believe the bible is inerrant. So, most won't even listen to what I have to say, which is fine.
The point still stands. One cannot say as fact that the thief was not baptized.
And this is what Calvin stated Go as far as the word of God reveals and do not go outside of His word with undo speculation...So, does His word indicate that the Thief was baptized prior to the Cross?...No, it does not...I believe that that piece of missing information speaks volumes when compared with what Yeshua stated regarding believing and being baptized and those who do not believe being condemned...
You are right, it is in the Hands of HaShem, not man's hands...The good thing that He has began in you He has promised to complete.......His Way, not ours...Just as those who have thier eyes finally opened at the end of their lives, we cannot say that that is merely a "fox-hole" confession, and these types are not baptized either, just as the thief was not...Are we to be as the worker in the vineyard who complained that he worked all day and received the same rate of pay that the worker who only worked the last hour of the day received, or are we to say that the owner, as He Himself stated, that it is His vineyard and that He has a right to do as He sees fit?...And what does Paul state in Romans, If you confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and believe in your hearts that HaShem has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved...Where does Paul include baptism in that statement?...I was always told Baptism is an outward confession of an inward decision...Makes sense in light of those who come to Faith just prior to death and the thief on the Cross...
So Katie what if someone in a North Korean prison camp gets saved and a short time later dies without being baptized. What happens to him?
Don't you think that what happens to him is up to God? By the very fact of asking this question you show that you don't trust the word of God. You are looking for a way out from baptism being necessary for salvation.
Besides if God is the one who instituted baptism as necessary (and He is), and He allows a scenario such as you describe, where a person cannot be baptized, don't you think God would suspend His command for that person? Just because one person in extreme circumstances may not be able to be baptized doesn't mean that baptism is therefore unnecessary and can be ignored by everyone else.
Don't you think that what happens to him is up to God? By the very fact of asking this question you show that you don't trust the word of God. You are looking for a way out from baptism being necessary for salvation.
Besides if God is the one who instituted baptism as necessary (and He is), and He allows a scenario such as you describe, where a person cannot be baptized, don't you think God would suspend His command for that person? Just because one person in extreme circumstances may not be able to be baptized doesn't mean that baptism is therefore unnecessary and can be ignored by everyone else.
As i stated earlier..... I think all Christians should be baptized. If you cant answer a simple question I cant carry on a conversation with you. Some, including yourself, are saying no exceptions. YOU MUST BE BAPTIZED. You are legalizing Christ. It now becomes a WORK. If someone cant get baptized God isn't going to hold it against them.
It doesn't take away from the fact that we need to be baptized. Its just a simple understanding.
Since scriptures tell us that God uses and accepts both ( Mark 16:16 \ John 3:5 and Romans 10:9-10) it isn't a question then.
It then becomes a question as to why certain people look to deny Mark 16:16 \ John 3:5 by looking for scenarios. I found that it's a matter of questioning Jesus for his word that comes from human reasoning due to lack of trust that what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 \ John 3:5 is also the truth.
Twin we agree strongly on all matters but what i'm simply saying is it might not be possible for people to be baptized. That doesn't mean they cant be saved. Again I believe all should be baptized.
Who says that every baptism preformed was as your mocking term of "being dumped in water"?
I'm not mocking the term, I was only making a distinction. I believe there are two definitions to the word baptism. When I say, "being dumped in water", I'm referring to the ceremonial practice. I believe everyone who believes the Gospel and receives Jesus into their hearts, are baptized into His death on the cross, with the sure promise of being raised in righteousness. The act of going under the water is just what we do, to identify what has happened within us. It's a wonder, and a joy, but the ceremonial act of baptism I don't believe is necessary for salvation.
Yet I'm starting to think there is more to all of this as a whole, and I want to do more study on it.
As i stated earlier..... I think all Christians should be baptized. If you cant answer a simple question I cant carry on a conversation with you. Some, including yourself, are saying no exceptions. YOU MUST BE BAPTIZED. You are legalizing Christ. It now becomes a WORK. If someone cant get baptized God isn't going to hold it against them.
It doesn't take away from the fact that we need to be baptized. Its just a simple understanding.
You are misrepresenting me, unintentionally, I believe. While I do believe that one must be baptized, I never once said there can be no exceptions. In fact what I said in my response to your earlier question is the God, should He so choose, could suspend His command to be baptized to a person in extreme circumstances who cannot be baptized or even in the case of someone who doesn't know to be baptized and dies before they find out.
Baptism does save. The question is what baptism is it that saves, Ritual (dunking in water) or Spiritual (that of the Holy Spirit).
Titus 3:4-7 - (4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward mankind appeared, (5) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing the Holy Ghost; (6) which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
It is the Holy Spirit that washes and renews us according to Paul, and not the washing of water. How are we baptized into Christ? Is by the water of the baptistry (or river, lake, etc.) or is it by the Holy Spirit. For there are two types of baptism in the bible, spiritual and ritual, and I believe that the one follows the other. When we are saved, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ, by and from whom we get 'the washing of regeneration and renewing.' Peter even supports this in his 'baptism' passage when he says, 'The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' It's not the ritual baptism of water that saves, rather it is the Spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit.
Let us look as the conversion of Cornelius the Roman Centurion. How did Peter know that salvation had come to the Gentiles? Peter and the other Jewish believers with him knew that the Holy Spirit, who is given at the time of salvation, had been give to the Gentiles present at Cornelius' house as evidenced by the speaking of tongues. Having noted that the promise of salvation as noted by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had been accomplished in the Gentiles, Peter then asks those believing Jews, 'Can anyone withhold water fro baptizing these people, how have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?' (Acts 10:47) It was not the baptizing by water that saved Cornelius and his household but the spiritual baptism of and by the Holy Spirit that evidenced their salvation which led to the outward ritual baptism by water welcoming them into the Church.
An interesting tidbit about the word baptism (which is transliteration of the word rather than an actual translation) is that it requires the immersion of the thing being baptized without indication of it's removal. Such is the case of pickling foods and the dying of cloth. Ancient recipies for both have been found with the instruction to 'baptize' the item. In the case of food, it requires the immersion of the food item, say cucumbers, into the brine and to remain there indefinitely. The same is true of cloth or other material that is to be dyed, the cloth is 'immersed' into the dye and left there for in indefinite amount of time. How long of time these items remain the in the liquid is determined by the desired strength of the pickling or the depth of the color of dyed material. This brings up the secondary meaning of baptize, which is to take on the character of that into which something is being baptized or immersed. In the case of pickles, the cucumber takes on the character of the brine into which is it immersed, or submerged, while the cloth, leather or fur takes on the character of the dye into which is it submerged.
Thus is the case of the Christian, the believer is baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit with the intention of taking on the character of Christ. Thus is the intended goal of spiritual baptism, for the person being baptized into Christ to take on his character. Water baptism, or ritual baptism, then is simply the outward symbolic gesture of something that is taking place in the spiritual realm. Water washing is not the intended goal, but spiritual cleansing. Thus, it is not the ritual baptism that matters anything aside from the public declaration of the dedication of one's life to Christ. Rather, it is the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit bringing the washing of regeneration and renewal to the believer that matters. But that is not to say that believers should not get themselves baptized, and I love the fact that a believer does not baptize himself but that others baptize them. On the contrary, every believer, who is a disciple of Christ should follow their conversion with a public confession of their dedication of their slavery to Christ with water baptism, which symbolizes their death with Christ and the resurrection to new life in him.
I enjoyed reading your post and basically agree with everything you said here. Ritual baptism comes after “salvation”. Ritual baptism which comes before “salvation” is only a religious ritual without reality. There’s no meaning to it. In 1 Peter 3:21 the emphasis is obviously on the reality of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, not the washing off of physical dirt [i.e. ritual baptism].
Alright when it comes to the thief on the cross, I'm puzzled as to why anyone would think he was baptized before being crucified. In fact, in the beginning, he was mocking Christ with the other guy. Would someone who was baptized, be mocking Christ in any way?
Yet all of that is besides the point. I think I can say out of the millions to billions of (and for the sake of the argument) true Christians who've come to know Jesus these past 2,000 years almost, I'm sure there was at least a few of them who didn't have the chance to be baptized in water don't you think?
Even the verse in question, confirms being dumped in water is not what saves you.
You can speculate and try to reason it out in your mind all day long but you have no DEFINITIVE way of proving whether the thief was or was not baptized. To teach that baptism is not necessary because the thief was not is dishonest. It is your opinion, therefore, meaningless.
None of us can say how Jesus will judge the exceptions. We have the command by Jesus to be baptized. Those who willfully refuse to obey are lost. We can say that with all assurance.
Well, I agree we can't know for sure whether or not the thief was baptized before crucifixion. (By the way, why do we say he's a thief? The Bible only mentions him as a criminal. He could have been a cold blooded murderer for all we know. Something to think about I suppose, wonder where we get most traditions from in the church.)
As for this topic, I'm actually going to hold off from speaking on it for the time being. Some things came up in my rememberance and study, and I want to fully look into it before I comment again.
Thank you for having the courage to say we can't know for sure whether this man was baptized or not.
I appreciate what you said about us calling him a thief. We don't know anything about his crime.
Good post.
God 's grace be with you,
Katie
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