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So, God picked out whom He would save, but not whom He would not? And the ones who were not picked will be punished for their unbelief, but they weren't predestined?
There is flaws all over the show in the doctrine of those who in their own eyes are the elite.
So, God picked out whom He would save, but not whom He would not? And the ones who were not picked will be punished for their unbelief, but they weren't predestined?
Yes that is how the Holy Spirit revealed predestination... try reading Romans and Ephesians without looking for errors and gotcha's and instead realize that unbelievers aren't mentioned as being predestined.
Romans 8:28-31
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have
been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers
and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified;
those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4-6
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In
love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
and what's more is that it's in accordance to his will and pleasure.
God desires that all be saved and so He draws all men to see that in Christ is salvation. But all have a choice to deny themselves and take up the cross or not and all do not. Those willing receive power to become the sons of God. He foreknows who will choose but does force [God is love] that choice and those who choose can not but change by His Grace because His is the Power and the Glory of change. God cannot predestine change in those who refuse and He did not predestine some to choose to continue in sin. Otherwise God would be the author of sin. He has made the way clear and continues to for those who have not yet learned enough.
It is impossible to receive from God without faith because it is only by faith/trust in Him and His way, that one can come into the very presence of God that changes/renders dead the old nature of sin. One can not be of the Body of Christ and a body of willful sin at the same time. Self will must die or it abides alone without God. Godly love means a relationship committed to the same ideals of God's goodness.
God desires that all be saved and so He draws all men to see that in Christ is salvation. But all have a choice to deny themselves and take up the cross or not and all do not. Those willing receive power to become the sons of God. He foreknows who will choose but does force [God is love] that choice and those who choose can not but change by His Grace because His is the Power and the Glory of change. God cannot predestine change in those who refuse and He did not predestine some to choose to continue in sin. Otherwise God would be the author of sin. He has made the way clear and continues to for those who have not yet learned enough.
It is impossible to receive from God without faith because it is only by faith/trust in Him and His way, that one can come into the very presence of God that changes/renders dead the old nature of sin. One can not be of the Body of Christ and a body of willful sin at the same time. Self will must die or it abides alone without God. Godly love means a relationship committed to the same ideals of God's goodness.
Romans 9 flat out disagrees with you on that. I'm sorry. It just does.
Yes that is how the Holy Spirit revealed predestination... try reading Romans and Ephesians without looking for errors and gotcha's and instead realize that unbelievers aren't mentioned as being predestined.
Well, yes, I can see that in these verses, the other side of the coint is not mentioned at all. What do you make of Romans 9:23ff?
"22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Is "Pre-destined" about individual, essentially arbitrary choices of certain people, or is it about the "plan" for responses (as opposed to individual responders) to the message to be "elected?"
I guess one could say earth was 'pre-destined' to abide forever- Ecclesiastes 1 v 4 B; Psalm 115 v 16
As to who will be part of the humble meek who will inherit the earth [ Psalm 37 vs 1, 29,38-40 ] is not predestined.
We all have the free will to be able to repent or not- 2nd Peter 3 v 9.
We freely place oneself in the position of being either a humble 'sheep' or a haughty 'goat'- Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
As to who is called to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10; 2 v 10 ] is also not predestined because one can fall away according to Hebrews 6 vs 4-6. So, the positions of kings and priests are foreordained but not who will end up filling the positions.
Yes that is how the Holy Spirit revealed predestination... try reading Romans and Ephesians without looking for errors and gotcha's and instead realize that unbelievers aren't mentioned as being predestined.
Romans 8:28-31
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have
been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers
and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified;
those he justified, he also glorified. Ephesians 1:4-6
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In
love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
and what's more is that it's in accordance to his will and pleasure.
The whole Christian congregation is considered as a holy nation or country [ 1st Peter 2 vs 9, 5 ]
Those 'sons' faithful to death [ Rev. 2 v 10; James 1 v 12 ] can receive the heavenly crown of life.
Those 'sons' who fall away will not. - Hebrews 6 vs 4-6
So, what was predestined or foreordained was the class of people Not the individual person or persons or 'sons'.
A pattern prescribed which to conform and carry out God's foreordained will for our day -Matthew 24 v 14; Acts 1 v 8
Those spirit adopted sons [ Romans 8 vs 16,17 ] are Jesus 'brothers' [ Rom. 8 v 12; Mathew 25 v 40 ] who are joint-heirs are being part of a first or an earlier resurrection in heaven.- Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10
So, the positions of ' kings and priests ' were foreordained but Not who will end up filling those heavenly positions.
Even Paul knew he could fall away- 1st Cor. 9 v 27
Well, yes, I can see that in these verses, the other side of the coint is not mentioned at all. What do you make of Romans 9:23ff?
"22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
What I would say is to take the bigger view of Romans 9 to include 6 - 29 to understand the way 22 - 23 should be understood.
Everyone deserves to be damned (vessels of wrath prepared for destruction), but only because of God's mercy that any one is not.
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
There is no other explanation other than it is based on God's will and pleasure that predestined the believer while those who are damned are so because of their rejection, and had God's foreknowledge of this.
And yes, it's not meant to be fully understandable on this side of heaven.
Last edited by twin.spin; 08-02-2013 at 08:59 PM..
What I would say is to take the bigger view of Romans 9 to include 6 - 29 to understand the way 22 - 23 should be understood.
Everyone deserves to be damned (vessels of wrath prepared for destruction), but only because of God's mercy that any one is not.
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Those who find this unfair find the only way to justify their hatred is to say things that are typical universalism talking points.
I'm having difficulty in seeing how you distinguish between the "prepared" when it is applied to destruction and when it is applied to mercy. If the "preparation" is what is meant by pre-destination, what is the difference? It sounds like you are saying that everyone is pre-destined to destruction but somehow mercy steps in and changes that "destination?" Verse 18 says,"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
Is "Pre-destined" about individual, essentially arbitrary choices of certain people, or is it about the "plan" for responses (as opposed to individual responders) to the message to be "elected?"
It means God choose or elects those to be saved...It is called unconditional election...
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