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And Mel White, who went through 25 years of struggling with who he is, finally came out as well, despite prayers, tears, all sorts of self-imposed physical and mental torture to change him. He couldn't. And he eventually accepted himself.
He was a pastor, the father of two children, a wife so wonderful she wrote the forward to his autobiography even though they are now divorced, and there are pictures of family gatherings with Mel, Lyla, his two children, Michael and Errin---and Mel's current partner, Gary. Mel remains a pastor of the largest gay church in the world, located in Dallas, Texas, with over 1200 members.
You've come to a position that you believe you must be celibate to honor God. Some could not reach that position. Good for you. There are heterosexuals that voluntarily choose to be celibate as well in order to honor God.
But if you are celibate because you believe what the CHURCH has told you, I feel very sorry for you. If you do it to honor God, then that is commendable. But homosexuality cannot possibly be a sin if God created virtually every animal mankind has found including fruit flies to have a population of about 2-4% homosexual behavior. A fruit fly didn't "choose" to sin. If it was natural to be born heterosexual, why would nearly brainless creatures exhibit this as a "chosen" behavior? Perhaps it was God's way of showing people with brains that there would be a few "special" people in the world, just like there are Down's Syndrome children that no one accuses of "choosing" how they are. The difference is that many, many parents of Down's Syndrome children love and accept them for who they are. It's not as true for homosexuals.
I don't think you were created anyway but the way you are supposed to be so that if you live your life fully and honestly and responsibly, with your faith in God and ESPECIALLY your attitude toward refraining from judging others because of their sin--that you can give glory to God whether you choose to be celibate or choose to find one loving partner with whom to form an unbreakable covenant relationship.
Mel's leaving his wife, a terrible sin imo, was a result of trying to live up to the expectations of evangelicals who were telling how he had to live his life and who he had to love. Telling him to deny how God had made him. And the interesting thing is that everyone who told him that, just like the ones "explaining" how they know God wants to burn homosexuals in hell say it through lips that are as sinful as anyone else's. I agree wholeheartedly with your line " Every Christian has their own issues and struggles." It's just that some people who claim Christianity would rather point fingers at other people's struggles than face their own issues.
Ultimately the road they are on--no matter whether they are way down the path like tthttf or have only taken a few short steps like jj---is the road that ends with the Westboro Baptist church and their banners of "God Hates ****!" Some of them genuinely may not see themselves there.
But here is the critical question. If condemning homosexuality is such a good thing, why aren't homosexuals rushing to "reparative" therapy, which has been reputed by its very founder? Why, if they have such a great message of God, are more and more young people rejecting evangelical churches--and those young people are claiming it is the judgmental attitude of the churches and their members which is doing it? The Barma Group, a Christian statistical group, states that even with young people (under age 30) who stay in the church, some 20% say the church is wrong in its stance regarding homosexuals. And ones leaving the church say it isn't relevant either.
The church gets a big fat F because it doesn't preach Jesus, its preaching "we're better than those sinners out there. All of them are evil, they are ruining our nation and bringing us to destruction." The fact is, it is the church itself (as a whole, not all) that is bringing the nation to destruction. Church views on abortion and homosexuality, things that were NEVER preached in the sixties--at least at no service I attended, and I had no Christian friends ever report such a message. It was never mentioned on my Christian campus even in the early seventies.
The church has lost it's calling and become the Church of Laodicea in the Bible. It believes people can be won to Christ by holding a ticket to heaven in one hand and clobbering people with the Bible in the other. No wonder people are leaving---there is nothing attractive about the vast majority of evangelical churches today.
Well I actually attend a church that stance is yes it is ok to be gay but not to practice it according to the pastors and preachers that run it. Yet it is extremely rare for the preachers to discuss homosexuality there. People from all backgrounds do attend the church. Even if you ever did attend a sermon there you would not really find it offensive. Infact I know a very pro gay rights guy that does enjoy going to my church. Yet of course the church is a megachurch. (that is another topic). Yet it is the small cell church groups more discuss the sins and all Christians have their own struggles and have had lust issues. Homosexual sins are no worse than if a man is lusting after a woman not his own wife.
I do not attend ex gay groups and not even my church runs them. Yet I feel I do not need to go to one. I do admit I did go to a pastor that is part of an exgay organisation but I did not last long. I did not disagree with what was being said. I felt not the need to go to one. As Christians we all struggle with different issues and no sin is worse than another. I have struggled with homosexual temptations for well over 25 years.
I even went to a very pro gay church where nearly everyone was gay and lesbian. Yes I liked the service and the people, yet what was missing was genuine repentance and not holding the bible to be 100% true.
Sure I get bombarded so many times from mainstream society that gays are born that way and nothing wrong with loving consensual relationships. Yet I choose to obedient to the Lord. I choose to enter the narrow path.
Matthew 7:13-14: 13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14, "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
I do not really care if most of the world does not think homosexuality is a sin, or if most Christians support gay marriage as the latest stats state that most Christians do. I much more am concerned on what God thinks of me.
Yet a Christian life for me is as follows: Matthew 16:24, Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Also it states the body is the temple of the holy spirit. It is not owned by us but by God and we are to honour our bodies for the Lord.. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20,For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Yes the early church did have former practising homosexuals just as there are churches today that have former practising homosexuals 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
And how exactly do the two of you believe God will punish America after He has finished judging?
Gods don't kill people. PEOPLE WITH GODS KILL PEOPLE.
Good question. Judgment is a decision rendered after consulting evidence. Punishment is the actual infliction of a penalty. In this instance God is the judge, jury and executioner of righteousness in the world among nations. Not for nothing is He called King of Kings.
The final statement is inaccurate and does not consider historic evidence, but I'll get back to that later.
* * *
An example of divine punishment against America may be examined in the historic fact of the Civil War. The judgment of sin in this case was the sin of slavery. Both segments of the nation participated in the economic and personal acts of slavery and as such were judged by God and found guilty. The punishment was four years of bloody conflict in which 640,000 men on both sides lost their lives. The entire Southern Civilization was wiped out. When the smoke cleared there was nothing left except burned out cities and dead bodies in the streets. This is exactly the pattern revealed in the Bible. Divine punishment following judgment.
A more current example is the Shanghai curse I've quoted before. At the beginning of the twentieth century, the city of Shanghai, China was a cesspool of moral and financial corruption. An American missionary there was so disturbed by the things that were done there that he concluded a letter to his missionary society in America by writing, 'if God does not judge Shanghai, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah'. The quote has mistakenly been attributed to Billy Graham. Since Ruth Graham grew up with missionary parents in China, she no doubt had heard of the remark. The correct quote in text and context are as I've described here. It is more correctly called the Shanghai curse, not the Graham curse.
In August of 1937, the Imperial Army of Japan attacked Shanghai. In Stalingrad type house to house fighting, the city was leveled. In October, the Chinese army withdrew leaving burnt buildings and dead bodies lying in the street. This is exactly the pattern revealed in the Bible. Divine punishment following judgment.
America is not exempt from the judgment of Almighty God. Punishment will follow. Our sins are many, including genocide of the native American, virtual slavery of the Chinese during the expansion of the west, incarceration of innocent Japanese during WWII, the resurgence of slavery in America of the twenty first century, war crimes, abortion of over 54 million innocent lives, Federal approval of drug addiction and governmental support of illegal banking practices(*) to name a few.
These aren't political examples, they are moral and religious ones. Examples which justify the judgment of condemnation by anyone with a moral conscience. And the last time I read the Bible, God had one.
* * *
The final statement in the quoted post "people with gods kill people" is inaccurate. Evidence for this, which is almost always denied by the atheist, is that the greatest wars of bloodshed during the twentieth century were instigated and pursued by atheist or godless governments; specifically Adolph Hitler, Joseph "man of steel" Stalin, Hideki Tojo, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot to name a few.
That the first two individuals had religious backgrounds, who in later years denied God so as to promote atheist philosophy and vindictive aggression seems to make no difference. According to atheist views of history, if a man ever entered a church or temple he is and remains a man of God forever. I dare say that would include nearly all American atheists - despite their energetic denial of religion. My point is that you can't swing an argument both ways. Either atheists caused WWII and the millions of deaths that ensued or there is no such thing as atheism. All their arguments stand on a tissue of lies and misrepresentation. Except for their denial of historic evidence to the contrary they continue their illogical denial of God and their moral participation in the deaths of millions. They are rather like Pontius Pilate, who tried to wash the blood of Christ off his hands after he'd sentenced the innocent man to public execution. Atheists have yet to learn the lesson Pilate learned. The blood doesn't come off.
I would like to end this post by thanking ditch lights for helping to define for the reader the difference between judgment and punishment.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) The Bible declares that unfair and unjust commercial transactions are a sin. They are in the same category as murder and adultery.
Last edited by Choir Loft; 12-18-2014 at 07:28 AM..
Well I actually attend a church that stance is yes it is ok to be gay but not to practice it according to the pastors and preachers that run it. Yet it is extremely rare for the preachers to discuss homosexuality there. People from all backgrounds do attend the church. Even if you ever did attend a sermon there you would not really find it offensive. Infact I know a very pro gay rights guy that does enjoy going to my church. Yet of course the church is a megachurch. (that is another topic). Yet it is the small cell church groups more discuss the sins and all Christians have their own struggles and have had lust issues. Homosexual sins are no worse than if a man is lusting after a woman not his own wife.
I do not attend ex gay groups and not even my church runs them. Yet I feel I do not need to go to one. I do admit I did go to a pastor that is part of an exgay organisation but I did not last long. I did not disagree with what was being said. I felt not the need to go to one. As Christians we all struggle with different issues and no sin is worse than another. I have struggled with homosexual temptations for well over 25 years.
I even went to a very pro gay church where nearly everyone was gay and lesbian. Yes I liked the service and the people, yet what was missing was genuine repentance and not holding the bible to be 100% true.
Sure I get bombarded so many times from mainstream society that gays are born that way and nothing wrong with loving consensual relationships. Yet I choose to obedient to the Lord. I choose to enter the narrow path.
Matthew 7:13-14: 13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14, "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
I do not really care if most of the world does not think homosexuality is a sin, or if most Christians support gay marriage as the latest stats state that most Christians do. I much more am concerned on what God thinks of me.
Yet a Christian life for me is as follows: Matthew 16:24, Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Also it states the body is the temple of the holy spirit. It is not owned by us but by God and we are to honour our bodies for the Lord.. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20,For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Yes the early church did have former practising homosexuals just as there are churches today that have former practising homosexuals 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The interests of churches that approve of the gay life style are purely economic. To reject gays is to reject potential donors. Donations are at the heart of every church franchise. If the money doesn't come in, you go out of business. If you reject gays, then you reject a possible source of revenue. It has nothing whatsoever to do with morality or Biblical principles. In theory is should, but in practice it doesn't.
Morality, as an ethical standard, is more foreign in a franchise church than the unwritten rules of behavior in the average biker bar. I know, I've been to both.
Because of the lack of morality among church leaders, the saints are departing the franchise by the millions. According to Pew and Gallup polls, regular church attendance in 2010 was down 60% from 1948 levels. By the year 2050 attendance is expected to fall to 10% of 1948 levels. (Projections were made by both poll organizations. Check it out.)
Imagine what that will do for church budgets? The pastor might actually have to give up his BMW and his extracurricular activities.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....
Last edited by Choir Loft; 12-18-2014 at 07:25 AM..
Thanks for the video link. This is an interesting concept, but you could argue that these heterosexual people also developed this way due to their home environment growing up, societal influence, etc. I'm not a psychologist, but I've heard and read about so many factors and theories of development spanning from influences in the womb to early childhood to teen years. How can we ever truly prove whether or not someone is born or develops to be straight or gay?
Well, the gay brain is wired/structured differently and those differences develop in the womb. In over 100 years of research, no real evidence exists showing cultural influence/upbringing affects orientation. If it did, you would expect to see drastically more gays in liberal households/cultures and none in places like Africa and the Middle East. Yet clearly they exist in every family/culture, indicating upbringing/culture have no real influence.
The interests of churches that approve of the gay life style are purely economic. To reject gays is to reject potential donors. Donations are at the heart of every church franchise. If the money doesn't come in, you go out of business. If you reject gays, then you reject a possible source of revenue. It has nothing whatsoever to do with morality or Biblical principles. In theory is should, but in practice it doesn't.
Morality, as an ethical standard, is more foreign in a franchise church than the unwritten rules of behavior in the average biker bar. I know, I've been to both.
Because of the lack of morality among church leaders, the saints are departing the franchise by the millions. According to Pew and Gallup polls, regular church attendance in 2010 was down 60% from 1948 levels. By the year 2050 attendance is expected to fall to 10% of 1948 levels. (Projections were made by both poll organizations. Check it out.)
Imagine what that will do for church budgets? The pastor might actually have to give up his BMW and his extracurricular activities.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....
Or maybe not everyone sees a wrathful god. Preaching love and equality will bring people to church, it is the fire and brimstone anti gay preaching that is driving young people away in droves. You won't be hollering from the choir loft when your church is forced to close its doors due to low attendance.
Preaching love and equality will bring people to church, it is the fire and brimstone anti gay preaching that is driving young people away in droves. You won't be hollering from the choir loft when your church is forced to close its doors due to low attendance.
So churches should reject God's Word to bolster their member roles? Jesus teaches us to speak with love, but also to speak in truth, and that the world will hate us and reject us but that those who 'endure to the end will be saved'. Any church that stops preaching the Word of God is worse than dead already.
Right you are. And every time I post in opposition to these self righteous haters of the way Jesus taught us to live, I think of that poor boy committing suicide because his parents listened to that ugly crap coming from the pulpits of America. I weep inside for his parents who now blame themselves for listening to the garbage that God has no place for individuals He made.
It's just so incredibly awful. I too have seen the damage and suffering that has been caused by parents choosing fundamentalism over their own children
Or maybe not everyone sees a wrathful god. Preaching love and equality will bring people to church, it is the fire and brimstone anti gay preaching that is driving young people away in droves. You won't be hollering from the choir loft when your church is forced to close its doors due to low attendance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
So churches should reject God's Word to bolster their member roles? Jesus teaches us to speak with love, but also to speak in truth, and that the world will hate us and reject us but that those who 'endure to the end will be saved'. Any church that stops preaching the Word of God is worse than dead already.
The real tragedy is that you are preaching the Bible . . . NOT the Word of God. Jesus never said the human compiled Bible was the word of God. Jesus the Christ is the Living Word of God and the embodiment of the Spirit of agape love. He abides with us. You do not believe He abides with us and do not test the Spirit of anything in the Bible against the Spirit of agape love who IS God. You are in for quite a shock upon your death, IMO.
The real tragedy is that you are preaching the Bible . . . NOT the Word of God. Jesus never said the human compiled Bible was the word of God. Jesus the Christ is the Living Word of God and the embodiment of the Spirit of agape love. He abides with us. You do not believe He abides with us and do not test the Spirit of anything in the Bible against the Spirit of agape love who IS God. You are in for quite a shock upon your death, IMO.
Jesus did indeed hold up His Words and the words of the Law and the Prophets as scripture, many times. Yes, the Holy Spirit does abide within me but does not ever contradict Christ, as they are one in the same. The Scripture is all about love, every single letter, culminating with the ultimate act of Love in the sacrifice of Christ.
The Bible is the Word of God, attested by Christ and affirmed by the Spirit living in me. In this there is no question.
As far as homosexuality, there is no hate in Christ, only love and truth. Through Christ we are called to love others more than ourselves, but this does not mean we do not hold fast to the truth of God.
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