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I asked recently for a certain someone (Post #325) to give me a blow-by-blow explanation of Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 (the two most notorious 'clobber' scriptures for condemning homosexuality) but this has so far fallen on deaf ears ...just as I thought it would. And so, I present below a post I made a number of years ago to a Jewish scholar on another forum for his informed opinion of a YouTube video that I found. The following is an exact copy of the conversation I had with this person. His name and the forum info can be given in a PM if requested as I feel it might be against CD Forum regulations to give them here. Anyway, I hope you find the following information interesting:
That was most interesting, c---man. Since you appear to be quite knowledgeable of the Torah, I wonder if you would spend 8:28 of your time and view the below video entitled The Truth About Leviticus & Homosexuality ...?
Since I'm a defender on this forum of those that appear to be 'born' homosexual but are nevertheless condemned by many present-day Christians, it's essential to me that I speak as accurately as I'm able whenever I debate the 'clobber' passages of Leviticus (and other allegedly anti-gay scriptures) with others.
Would you say that the 'explanations' of the Leviticus 'clobber' passages as given in the video to be at least feasible based on what you know?
The response of c---man:
I watched the video, and it's quite good. A trifle oversimplified when it comes to discussing other religions of the Bronze Age -- they weren't ALL obsessed with fertility rites and so on, and there were other contexts for "gay sex" as well, e.g. homosexual anal rape as a formal humiliation in war or feud -- but the analysis of the language of the Hebrew Bible is right on the money.
As I said, the Bible does not seem to be "aware," so to speak, of homosexuality as a sexual orientation; the reason the ACT is the point of reference is that it never occurred to the writers that anyone would do this because they WANTED to, or that one could be attracted to the same sex and want to live in a gay relationship.
Whatever. The fact is, we know things now that we didn't then, and the world is different. How many rules can one find in the Hebrew Bible that are no longer kept, or even understood in today's world? I eat shellfish, and often; I eat pork, I wear mixed fabrics, and when I had a garden I planted different crops together because they enriched the soil and kept the pests off each other. Anybody wearing a cotton/polyester shirt with clams or shrimp on his breath who points to these so-called "Clobber Passages" is either (a) ignorant or (b) a flaming hypocrite. I've got no patience for people who want to tell me that they "chose" to be straight and that gays can "choose" to change. That's nonsense.
Proof? Okay. CHOOSE TO BE GAY. Right now. You don't have to DO anything about it, mind; just CHOOSE to feel attracted to the other sex.
Can't be done.
My converting rabbi used to say, "If you see something in Torah that you KNOW to be wrong, there are two and only two alternatives. Either you are not reading the Torah properly -- or the Torah is wrong."
Notice that the third alternative, the one most commonly chosen by fundamentalists -- that is, "Discard your own rationality and moral sense in favor of religious dogmatism dictated by a literal reading" -- is not available to us. We are NOT allowed to stop thinking and just do as we're told. Not EVER. The Bible doesn't interpret itself, and even if it did, OUR MINDS STILL WORK. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO.
As I've said elsewhere; a literal reading disfigures and denigrates the Bible.
Many thanks for the positive comments regarding my previous post. And, 'reps' are to me like receiving a Christmas gift!
I really would like to hear the thoughts of BaptistFundie, SimpleSonya, kjw47, SumTingy, Finn_Jarber, Choir Loft, atgss, et al, with regard to their thoughts on the Leviticus texts.
I didn't want to comment on this topic but since it won't go away I'll make one comment and that will be it with this one.
We Christians don't believe that homosexuality is the worst of all sins. What makes this sin bad in our eyes is how its being forcefully normalized against the will of the majority, which even includes atheists and other non-Christians who also don't agree with the lifestyle for obvious reasons. Moderator cut: Political remarks removed. Its their lives that will be ruined with the gay choice...not ours. Though advocates for homosexuality try very hard to bring homosexuality into our churches so that we will have gay priests and teach little children that its ok to be gay. But Jesus very clearly and sternly warned what would happen those those who deceived little children. He said it would be better for these deceivers to have a millstone thrown around their necks and tosses into the sea then it will be for them on the day of Judgement. For our churches are not club houses where the rules change to fit fad and fashion. But homosexuals don't seem to care about this nor respect any of our boundaries we've put forth.
Moderator cut: Political remarks removed. Its like gays aren't happy unless they are attacking Christians. They do not see how their behavior has been prophesied 2000 years before all this insanity started. It makes no sense to attack Christianity while in the process literally proving the Bible to be true.
If gays just wanted to live their own lives then why are they trying to force others to think their way? Why do they want control of national academia? You see we Christians don't believe they should have control over the minds of children because all they will do is warp their little minds and pervert them at a very young age. We simply do not believe that normalizing homosexuality is in the best interests of the nation. Moderator cut: Political remarks removed.
Last edited by mensaguy; 07-23-2018 at 10:56 AM..
Reason: Politics removed
Back in the day when it was socially acceptable to bash homosexuals, the ones who voiced their hatred the loudest were often closet poofs themselves.
The most vocal Christians against homosexuality no-doubt feel confused & threatened by their own sexuality & desires & trying to convince themselves that their arousal in mens dressing rooms is normal.
Well, Fezzilla, your "contribution" is nothing but the usual substanceless diatribe that never even mentions the questions raised. Really,why DID you sound off when you have nothing to add but your name to the list of ignorantly prejudiced?
I didn't want to comment on this topic but since it won't go away I'll make one comment and that will be it with this one.
We Christians don't believe that homosexuality is the worst of all sins. What makes this sin bad in our eyes is how its being forcefully normalized against the will of the majority, which even includes atheists and other non-Christians who also don't agree with the lifestyle for obvious reasons. Moderator cut: Political remarks removed. Its their lives that will be ruined with the gay choice...not ours. Though advocates for homosexuality try very hard to bring homosexuality into our churches so that we will have gay priests and teach little children that its ok to be gay. But Jesus very clearly and sternly warned what would happen those those who deceived little children. He said it would be better for these deceivers to have a millstone thrown around their necks and tosses into the sea then it will be for them on the day of Judgement. For our churches are not club houses where the rules change to fit fad and fashion. But homosexuals don't seem to care about this nor respect any of our boundaries we've put forth.
Moderator cut: Political remarks removed. Its like gays aren't happy unless they are attacking Christians. They do not see how their behavior has been prophesied 2000 years before all this insanity started. It makes no sense to attack Christianity while in the process literally proving the Bible to be true.
If gays just wanted to live their own lives then why are they trying to force others to think their way? Why do they want control of national academia? You see we Christians don't believe they should have control over the minds of children because all they will do is warp their little minds and pervert them at a very young age. We simply do not believe that normalizing homosexuality is in the best interests of the nation. Moderator cut: Political remarks removed.
If God truly hated homosexuality as bad as he is said to, and taking into consideration he destroyed 2 cities due to this sin...why has he been silent and inactive today, why hasnt he destroyed any modern cities or sent his wrath in some other way?
And to clarify, when I say 'Gods wrath', I mean something that can have no other possible explanation, if God sends his wrath, Im sure he wants it to be very clear it is coming from him and for a specific reason, he would definitely not want people thinking it could be something else, like maybe a natural disaster, he would want everyone to know why its happening and who its coming from.
I would have thought, the day gay marriage was legalized in the US, God would surely take action in some way...but nope, nothing happened...?
Last edited by mensaguy; 07-23-2018 at 10:58 AM..
Reason: Quoted post edited
Many thanks for the positive comments regarding my previous post. And, 'reps' are to me like receiving a Christmas gift!
I really would like to hear the thoughts of BaptistFundie, SimpleSonya, kjw47, SumTingy, Finn_Jarber, Choir Loft, atgss, et al, with regard to their thoughts on the Leviticus texts.
Any chance of that happening?
God created man and a woman, to bear children. All forms of sex out of marriage is condemned-1Cor 6:9-11.
Leviticus is clear its detestable for a man to lie down with a man like he does a woman. Or woman with woman. All sex out of marriage is condemned by the bible.
God created man and a woman, to bear children. All forms of sex out of marriage is condemned-1Cor 6:9-11.
Leviticus is clear its detestable for a man to lie down with a man like he does a woman. Or woman with woman. All sex out of marriage is condemned by the bible.
The bible is wrong about hundreds of things. People who don't realize that are dunderheads.
If God truly hated homosexuality as bad as he is said to, and taking into consideration he destroyed 2 cities due to this sin...why has he been silent and inactive today, why hasnt he destroyed any modern cities or sent his wrath in some other way?
And to clarify, when I say 'Gods wrath', I mean something that can have no other possible explanation, if God sends his wrath, Im sure he wants it to be very clear it is coming from him and for a specific reason, he would definitely not want people thinking it could be something else, like maybe a natural disaster, he would want everyone to know why its happening and who its coming from.
I would have thought, the day gay marriage was legalized in the US, God would surely take action in some way...but nope, nothing happened...?
Ummm, have you ever heard of the CURSE of the Atlanta Sports teams, Atlanta might be the #1 city in regards to the issue of Homosexuality and God has placed a curse on our sports teams as a results :-(, just look at the Falcons Superbowl melt down to the Patriots, the Braves for a decade +, and the poor ole Atlanta Hawks. God is ANGRY!!!!
Ive actually heard this before lol and the person that said it must have not noticed the teams from NYC and San Francisco, that have a large gay crowd, have won many championships.
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