Why does homosexuality anger conservative Christians more than other sins? (Leviticus, Sodom)
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If you truly understood your own sin you wouldn't have time to tell others about theirs. What telling OTHERS about their sin really is----is a power play. A "I'm better than you because I don't partake in YOUR sin," mentality.
i did understand my own sin nature, ALL of it....that's why i repented and accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. He is the reason i come to Him each day in prayer, supplication and repentance....because i know that in spite of being saved, i still sin. however, i know that Jesus is quick to forgive me of my sin if i confess them to Him when i do. so i am no different than anyone else as you seem to suggest.
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You are a complete utter liar (or perhaps more kindly a nincompoop) with regard to "liberals" denying the consequences of sin. I've had more than my share of consequences for my sins, but neither did I, like most conservatives, blame it on the "devil" other than the devil that stares at me in the mirror.
i don't see Christians who truly adhere to the tenets of God's Word trying to change the Bible because they think certain verses are condeming practices the Bible states are contrary to His Word....pretty much just the liberals who don't want to hear the Gospel of salvation along with the consequences for rejecting Christ. and btw, i have been quite respectful of others here, including you....too bad you and others like yourself have to use insults and name-calling to make a point.
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Dishonesty is the primary trait of the vast majority of conservative evangelicals. They love to point out sins that aren't their own. They love to accept adulterers into their congregations (about which God had about a hundred times more to say than anything about homosexuality) pretending it is a sin that is not ongoing regardless that the adulterer remains married to someone other than their original spouse.
those who engage in those sins are called to repent of them just as much as anyone else is....there is no favoritism going on there, no free passes. ALL must confess and repent of their sins. i have personally heard the testimonies of some who were engaged in immoral practices come before the congregation and state how joyful and at peace they were to be out from under the pressures of the sin that bound them. i am one of them and i have publicly denounced my sins before.
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You WILL answer to God for refusing to hear His words of mercy and encourage other sinners like yourself to trust God regardless. They, like you, are totally unable to remain righteous day in and day out. The difference in us "liberal" Christians and evangelical conservatives is that we depend on God's grace and mercy rather than our ability to stay out of sinfulness to put us in a right relationship with Him.
yes, i will answer to God for how i conducted myself but perhaps not for the reasons you listed. just telling someone that "God loves them" is more than likely not going to stir their hearts enough for them to seek God for forgiveness when they don't believe they have done anything wrong in the first place. however, tell someone about the nature of sin and how we, as human beings, cannot uphold even the 10 commandments and are in need of a Savior who will bestow upon us grace, love and mercy if we repent of our sinful ways, acknowledge and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and then each day, die to ourselves and carry our cross in obeyance to Him, then they will begin to have some conviction about their lives.
finally, yes, ALL who follow Christ depend on His grace and mercy each day and i thank God each day for that. but when we diminish the severity of sin and the practice of it, whatever form or fashion that takes, we diminish the impact of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. God's Word is to be preached, not just bits and pieces of it but ALL of it. as it states in Hebrews 4:12 "for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." and in 2 Corinthians 5:18-6:1 "all this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. we implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. for our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain." i.e., a false conversion. so yes, we are to share the message of the love of God, but also why Jesus died for mankind which is inherent sin in man. if not, then what would be the reason for Jesus dying on the Cross? if we share only the "God is love" portion of the salvation message and fail to explain why salvation through Christ only is necessary, then we are doing a disservice to those who are on the receiving end of the message.
Last edited by urbanlemur; 11-18-2018 at 08:15 AM..
A 'sodomite' (as used in the KJV) is the term used for a male temple prostitute. ONCE AGAIN ...a temple prostitute served a specific purpose within the temple and whether or not he was gay or straight was IRRELEVANT! Any condemnation from the early Christian Church (as well as the few references found in the Old Testament) regarding 'sodomite' activity was LESS about 'homosexuality' (these ancient folks didn't know what 'homosexuality' was!) and MORE about the worship of false gods!
That said ...and I'm truly serious here, HWC2040 ...do you honestly believe that a gay person is supposed to read 1 Timothy 1:9-10, here it is again . . .
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
. . .and feel that this scripture is aimed at them and that they should hang their head in shame and convert to being straight?
You should be ashamed of yourself coming on here and preaching such unadulterated nonsense because this is precisely what it is!
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Originally Posted by HeWillCome2040
Romulus, your wrong. Paul used the term sodomite knowing that the Physical Temple had no bearing on Christianity for Christ's Body is the Temple. It would make no sense for him to say they were temple prostitutes when that context is not valid.
Be careful, HWC ...Paul never used the word 'sodomite' anywhere in his letters. That's an Old Testament term for 'temple prostitute'. It's not used in the New Testament at all. Nor did Paul mention the term 'temple prostitutes' as far as I'm aware. But, he CERTAINLY alluded to them in Romans 1 since they were a part of the idolatry practices mentioned in that passage. Sacred temple prostitution was apparently a pretty big deal back in Paul's day as well as prior to Paul's day. Have you actually taken the time to read up on pagan idolatry and temple prostitution, HWC? Perhaps you should so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
I don't know where you're going with your somehow applying 'Christ's Body is the Temple' to Romans 1:18-27 because it is clearly stating that 'those who once knew God' were now participating in idol worship. And, if you do read that passage of scripture just 'as is' you will see the connection Paul makes to sexual rituals consisting of sexual intercourse or other sexual activity performed in the context of religious worship. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Paul suddenly shifts his focus in this chapter from idolatry (which is the main theme of the chapter) to shenanigans that may have been going on within his own private circles. I realize that you and yours need that passage of scripture as ammunition to vilify gay people but, sorry, it won't wash.
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Originally Posted by HeWillCome2040
Here is 1 Tim 9-10:
1Ti 1:9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly sinners, for the evil and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 for fornicators, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
Gee, you're not keeping up are you, HWC? That scripture has already been addressed in this VERY post! The term 'homosexuals' that you even had the audacity to bold was NOT in the original scriptures since the word did not exist! Nor did an equivalent word exist in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek vocabularies of the original Bible authors. You see, these folks would not have known what a homosexual was ...certainly not as we today define homosexuality as a natural (to a certain percentage of people) sexual orientation.
Romulus, I have watched you throughout this thread and in countless other threads, patiently and thoughtfully, post information about these supposed clobber verses from the Bible a bit at a time which should give any honest, thinking, compassionate person ample reason to reconsider their condemnation of people who are homosexual. I have also seen those various points of information routinely and consistently ignored, as if you had never posted. So, I thought that if I gave the link to the small pamphlet I found which puts many of those points together in a cohesive and systematic way, surely some of these “Bible believers” would actually study the passages that they freely use to harm others in light of that information and respond with either something that they think refutes it, or far better, with a true repentance for having condemned others based on a lack of knowledge and understanding.
Instead, they stand with their proverbial fingers in their ears, repeating their “it’s a sin” mantras loudly (lthe equivalent of, “lalalalala, I cant heeeeeeear you”) never once addressing the information you have presented. Never. once. That, in itself, is compelling evidence that what drives their condemnation of homosexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with truth or love. In other words, it is NOT of God.
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
A 'sodomite' (as used in the KJV) is the term used for a male temple prostitution ONCE AGAIN ...a temple prostitute served a specific purpose within the temple and whether or not he was gay or straight was IRRELEVANT! Any condemnation from the early Christian Church (as well as the few references found in the Old Testament) regarding 'sodomite' activity was LESS about 'homosexuality' (these ancient folks didn't know what 'homosexuality' was!) and MORE about the worship of false gods!
That said ...and I'm truly serious here, HWC2040 ...do you honestly believe that a gay person is supposed to read 1 Timothy 1:9-10, here it is again . . .
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
. . .and feel that this scripture is aimed at them and that they should hang their head in shame and convert to being straight?
You should be ashamed of yourself coming on here and preaching such unadulterated nonsense because this is precisely what it is!
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
You know that we know that, right? So, I repeat what I've previously said MANY times . . .you will NOT find any EQUIVALENT term for 'homosexual' in the original manuscripts of scripture ...not in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, and not in Greek! Okay? The best that some can do in their useless efforts to continue to demean homosexuals is to present a word that was evidently made up by Paul (arsenokoitai) that NO ONE KNOWS THE DEFINITION OF! NOR SHOULD ANYONE CARE EVEN IF PAUL DID MEAN 'HOMOSEXUAL'!
How long must it be before you guys catch on? Human sexuality would not have been high on anyone's academic agenda back in the day and it's only in recent times that present-day ignorance on the subject has been rectified. Homosexuals ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE! And, there is NO REASON WHY THEY SHOULD HAVE TO CHANGE WHO THEY ARE JUST TO SATISFY A DECLINING (thank God!) BUNCH OF RELIGIOUS BIGOTS!
Um, settle down, Rom . . .
Evidently you are not capable of that, BF. The Leviticus texts have been done and dusted a number of times, as has Romans 1 which is about idolatry. Do the right thing, BF, and explain in your own words at which point Paul changes direction in Romans 1:18-27 from his first referring to 'those who once knew God' and their having taken to the worship of idols and then goes on - just out of the blue - to reference 'general' homosexuality. Good luck . . .
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Repeating your opinion over and over, never explaining why you hold that opinion in the face of compelling information which contradicts it, is anything but convincing. I offer you the same opportunity as Urban:
For the rest of us, then, who don't believe the "clobber" passages used to condemn homosexuals mean what some of you say they mean, could you explain why you've dismissed the information about the culture and language of the biblical writings that show those passages are not about same sex committed relationships? I posted a link. It's just 12 pages. I'll post it again, and perhaps you could give us at least some of your counter arguments. Given the gravity of what you and those like you are proposing here, surely it's worth the time. Thanks.
Be careful, HWC ...Paul never used the word 'sodomite' anywhere in his letters. That's an Old Testament term for 'temple prostitute'. It's not used in the New Testament at all. Nor did Paul mention the term 'temple prostitutes' as far as I'm aware. But, he CERTAINLY alluded to them in Romans 1 since they were a part of the idolatry practices mentioned in that passage. Sacred temple prostitution was apparently a pretty big deal back in Paul's day as well as prior to Paul's day. Have you actually taken the time to read up on pagan idolatry and temple prostitution, HWC? Perhaps you should so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
I don't know where you're going with your somehow applying 'Christ's Body is the Temple' to Romans 1:18-27 because it is clearly stating that 'those who once knew God' were now participating in idol worship. And, if you do read that passage of scripture just 'as is' you will see the connection Paul makes to sexual rituals consisting of sexual intercourse or other sexual activity performed in the context of religious worship. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Paul suddenly shifts his focus in this chapter from idolatry (which is the main theme of the chapter) to shenanigans that may have been going on within his own private circles. I realize that you and yours need that passage of scripture as ammunition to vilify gay people but, sorry, it won't wash.
Gee, you're not keeping up are you, HWC? That scripture has already been addressed in this VERY post! The term 'homosexuals' that you even had the audacity to bold was NOT in the original scriptures since the word did not exist! Nor did an equivalent word exist in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek vocabularies of the original Bible authors. You see, these folks would not have known what a homosexual was ...certainly not as we today define homosexuality as a natural (to a certain percentage of people) sexual orientation.
Romulus, I'm sure you understand that the word "homosexuality" or "Homosexual" did NOT have to exist in Paul's time. It didn't need to because there are words that mean the same thing such as arsenokoites.
arsenokoitēs
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind
Again, there is no Temple but the Body of Christ, therefore, the understanding your accepting of temple prostitute is flawed. You have bad information that your pedaling.
Also, I don't need to vilify homosexuals. They are cursed already. I'm trying to help them from being cursed.
You keep saying that nobody would know what a homosexual is - that is absurd.
Romulus, I'm sure you understand that the word "homosexuality" or "Homosexual" did NOT have to exist in Paul's time. It didn't need to because there are words that mean the same thing such as arsenokoites.
arsenokoitēs
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind
Again, there is no Temple but the Body of Christ, therefore, the understanding your accepting of temple prostitute is flawed. You have bad information that your pedaling.
Also, I don't need to vilify homosexuals. They are cursed already. I'm trying to help them from being cursed.
You keep saying that nobody would know what a homosexual is - that is absurd.
"...One way to learn a word’s definition is to analyze it in other contexts. However, the word arsenokoites is extremely rare, appearing in only one other place in the Bible... The Greek word, arsenokoites, is not found anywhere else in Greek literature prior to the first century, when these passages of scripture were written....
There are, however, a few stories in non-Biblical Greek literature that suggest the word arsenokoites refers to instances where one male uses his superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 20) Many scholars therefore conclude that the term refers to forcible male-on-male sex, or to sexual exploitation involving prostitution...."
These are those males that lie with other males - they are homosexuals.
They are male prostitutes and their 'clients'. You're doing a disservice to 'Christianity', HWC, by consistently misusing scripture to vilify gay people. In your case I don't think it's intentional but you really do need to educate yourself on some of the pagan worship practices 'back in the day' that DID make sense to those who performed them. They would not have considered idol worship to have been an evil thing, nor would they have considered sexual rituals with temple prostitutes as evil. The latter were there to provide a religious service believing them to appease the idols in exchange for 'supernatural' favors. In a way, these religious services may not have been too much different from the over-the-top meetings of some present-day Pentecostal Churches. I wonder what Paul would have to say about them if he were still around ...?
They are male prostitutes and their 'clients'. You're doing a disservice to 'Christianity', HWC, by consistently misusing scripture to vilify gay people. In your case I don't think it's intentional but you really do need to educate yourself on some of the pagan worship practices 'back in the day' that DID make sense to those who performed them. They would not have considered idol worship to have been an evil thing, nor would they have considered sexual rituals with temple prostitutes as evil. The latter were there to provide a religious service believing them to appease the idols in exchange for 'supernatural' favors. In a way, these religious services may not have been too much different from the over-the-top meetings of some present-day Pentecostal Churches. I wonder what Paul would have to say about them if he were still around ...?
It is not male prostitutes. It is referring to homosexuals. Again, I don't vilify gay people. The only people being vilified here are those preaching against homosexuality.
It is not male prostitutes. It is referring to homosexuals. Again, I don't vilify gay people. The only people being vilified here are those preaching against homosexuality.
Because you say so and want to believe it so that you can continue to condemn others, not based on the actual language and culture of the time.
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