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If they weren't called Hebrews in the time of Moses then why did Moses refer to himself as a Hebrew?
Exodus 5:3 Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go a three days' journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God, otherwise He will fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword." [NASB]
Exodus 5:3 And they said, "The God of the Hebrews has happened upon us. Now let us go on a three day journey in the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He strike us with a plague or with the sword." [The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi commentary]
If Daniel wasn't a prophet then why did Jesus call him a prophet?
Matthew 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), [NASB]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Find that in Daniel...
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27.
Dan. 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." [NASB]
Dan. 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. [Septuagint]
Yea, I do know my history...Better than you do...I also know your history Better than you do...They weren't called Hebrews in the time of Moshe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If they weren't called Hebrews in the time of Moses then why did Moses refer to himself as a Hebrew?
Exodus 5:3 Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go a three days' journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God, otherwise He will fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword." [NASB]
Exodus 5:3 And they said, "The God of the Hebrews has happened upon us. Now let us go on a three day journey in the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He strike us with a plague or with the sword." [The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi commentary]
You didn't answer my question. You claimed that the Israelites weren't called Hebrews in the time of Moses. I asked why if they weren't called Hebrews at the time of Moses does Moses refer to himself as a Hebrew? (Ex. 5:3)
The answer is that they were known both as Israelites or sons of Israel, and as Hebrews.
The first time the word 'Hebrew' is used in the Old Testament is in Genesis 14:13 where Abram is referred to as Abram the Hebrew. This was before the nation Israel existed.
Then, as already shown, Moses refers to himself and his people as Hebrews in Exodus 5:3.
Later, after the exodus from Egypt God calls the Israelites 'Hebrews.'
Ex. 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
If the Book of Daniel only refers to things which were to take place relatively soon (which is still prophecy) then why does Daniel 7:9-14 speak of Daniel's vision concerning the everlasting kingdom which will never pass away and which is to be given to the Son of Man? This hasn't happened yet. This will take place when Jesus returns. It is still future, and therefore thousands of years after Daniel's time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Where does it say that Mashiach HaMelek goes away and then returns?...
Obviously, nowhere in the Old Testament is the fact that Jesus will come more than once, mentioned, because the prophets weren't told about the dispensation of the church which separates the two comings of Jesus.
Just as obviously however is the fact that the vision in Daniel 7:9-14 has not as yet been fulfilled. It is still a future event. That Jesus will return again is clearly stated in the New Testament.
Obviously, nowhere in the Old Testament is the fact that Jesus will come more than once, mentioned, because the prophets weren't told about the dispensation of the church which separates the two comings of Jesus.
Just as obviously however is the fact that the vision in Daniel 7:9-14 has not as yet been fulfilled. It is still a future event. That Jesus will return again is clearly stated in the New Testament.
So, if it is not stated in the Tanakh, BUT, the attributes and requirements of the Mashiach ARE, how can your Jesus be the Mashiach, since he didn't accomplish anything from the Tanakh?..
Dan. 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." [NASB]
Dan. 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. [Septuagint]
27. And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.
Rashi:
And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week: לָרַבִּים, for the princes, like “and all the officers of (רַבֵּי) the king,” in the Book of Jeremiah (39:13).
will strengthen: Titus [will strengthen] a covenant with the princes of Israel.
for one week: He will promise them the strengthening of a covenant and peace for seven years, but within the seven years, he will abrogate his covenant.
he will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering: This is what he says in the first vision (8:26): “and in tranquility he will destroy many.” Through a covenant of tranquility, he will destroy them.
and on high, among abominations will be the dumb one: This is a pejorative for pagan deities. i.e., on a high place, among abominations and disgusting things, he will place the dumb one, the pagan deity, which is dumb like a silent stone.
high: Heb. כְּנַף, lit. wing, an expression of height, like the wing of a flying bird.
and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one: and the ruling of the abomination will endure until the day that the destruction and extermination decreed upon it [will] befall it, in the days of the king Messiah.
befall the dumb one: Heb. תִּתַּ, reach; and total destruction will descend upon the image of the pagan deity and upon its worshippers.
Dan. 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." [NASB]
Dan. 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. [Septuagint]
27. And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.
Rashi:
And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week: לָרַבִּים, for the princes, like “and all the officers of (רַבֵּי) the king,” in the Book of Jeremiah (39:13).
will strengthen: Titus [will strengthen] a covenant with the princes of Israel.
for one week: He will promise them the strengthening of a covenant and peace for seven years, but within the seven years, he will abrogate his covenant.
he will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering: This is what he says in the first vision (8:26): “and in tranquility he will destroy many.” Through a covenant of tranquility, he will destroy them.
and on high, among abominations will be the dumb one: This is a pejorative for pagan deities. i.e., on a high place, among abominations and disgusting things, he will place the dumb one, the pagan deity, which is dumb like a silent stone.
high: Heb. כְּנַף, lit. wing, an expression of height, like the wing of a flying bird.
and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one: and the ruling of the abomination will endure until the day that the destruction and extermination decreed upon it [will] befall it, in the days of the king Messiah.
befall the dumb one: Heb. תִּתַּ, reach; and total destruction will descend upon the image of the pagan deity and upon its worshippers.
Like I said, nothing to do with Revelation...
Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:15 which quotes Daniel 9:27 refers to the man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:4) taking his seat in the temple of God and displaying himself as God. This will occur during the middle of the Tribulation and is referred to in Revelation 13 when the beast, the man of lawlessness, is given authority to act for 42 months - the second half of the Tribulation - 3 1/2 years. It is at this point that the Jews in Judea who heed Jesus' warning to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:16) will do so as stated in Revelation 12:6 where they will be nourished during the last half of the Tribulation. During this last half of the Tribulation the beast will demand to be worshipped as God and will blaspheme God (Rev. 13:4-8).
In fact, the Tribulation will begin with the signing of a covenant with the many (Dan. 9:27). The prince who is to come (the man of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2) will sign a peace treaty with Israel, but will break that treaty during the middle of the Tribulation.
And so, yes, Daniel 9:27 refers to events taking place in the Tribulation and is addressed in the Book of Revelation.
Obviously, nowhere in the Old Testament is the fact that Jesus will come more than once, mentioned, because the prophets weren't told about the dispensation of the church which separates the two comings of Jesus.
Just as obviously however is the fact that the vision in Daniel 7:9-14 has not as yet been fulfilled. It is still a future event. That Jesus will return again is clearly stated in the New Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
So, if it is not stated in the Tanakh, BUT, the attributes and requirements of the Mashiach ARE, how can your Jesus be the Mashiach, since he didn't accomplish anything from the Tanakh?..
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies He was supposed to fulfill during His first advent. He will fulfill the remainder of the prophecies when He returns.
As Jesus stated, as recorded in Luke 4:21, He fulfilled the part of the prophecy in Isaiah 61 up through Isaiah 61:2a (compare with Luke 4:18-19). When He returns He will fulfill the rest of the prophecy.
Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1-17) fulfilled Zech. 9:9.
His sacrificial death on the cross fulfilled Isaiah 53. both He and the apostle Philip stated that Isaiah 53 referred to Him. Jesus quoted Isaiah 53:12 and said that it must be fulfilled in Him (Luke 22:37). The apostle Philip, when questioned by the Ethiopian Eunuch who Isaiah 53 referred to began to preach Jesus to him from Isaiah 53 (Acts 8:26-35).
Jesus fulfilled certain of the Old Testament prophecies during His first advent. He will fulfill others at His second advent.
Jesus is the Messiah as many Jews have recognized from the time of His first advent down to today. Many other Jews, such as yourself, refuse to recognize that He is the Messiah.
Jesus brought a new covenant for Ephraim and Judah.
That's all.
Who thusly rejected him and it( except for a few)--then it turned to the gentiles. All are under it now.
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