Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
People who deny that Jesus bore our sins and died for us in our place like to use passages such as Ezekiel 18:20 to make their case.
Ezek. 18:20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Under the Mosaic Law a person took the punishment for his own crimes and offenses. But this has no relationship to the fact that God became man and took the punishment that was due us.
What is ignored or not understood by people who appeal to Ezek. 18:20 to argue that Jesus could not have died for our sins is the fact that Isaiah 53 clearly speaks to the unbiased reader about the death and resurrection of the righteous servant of the Lord on behalf of His sinful people. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel, but is an individual who suffers and dies on behalf of the Lord's people (Israel) for whom the stroke of punishment was due for their transgression (v.8). The Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering (v.10). The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him (v.6). My servant will justify the many, as he will bear their iniquities (v.11). He Himself bore the sin of the many, and interceded for the transgressors (v.12).
There is a clear contrast between the suffering righteous servant and those for whom He suffers and dies.
Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself in Luke 22:37 where He quotes a portion of Isaiah 53:12 and says that it must be fulfilled in Him.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'and He was numbered with transgressors': for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
Addionally, Luke records in Acts 8:26-35 that Philip said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. In that passage the Ethiopian Eunuch was reading Isaiah 53 from the Septuagint and asked Philip to whom it referred. Philip then began to preach Jesus to him from Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53 then is a clear Messianic prophecy with reference to Jesus and that He would render Himself as a guilt offering, dying in our place for our sins.
People who deny that Jesus bore our sins and died for us in our place like to use passages such as Ezekiel 18:20 to make their case.
Ezek. 18:20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Under the Mosaic Law a person took the punishment for his own crimes and offenses. But this has no relationship to the fact that God became man and took the punishment that was due us.
What is ignored or not understood by people who appeal to Ezek. 18:20 to argue that Jesus could not have died for our sins is the fact that Isaiah 53 clearly speaks to the unbiased reader about the death and resurrection of the righteous servant of the Lord on behalf of His sinful people. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel, but is an individual who suffers and dies on behalf of the Lord's people (Israel) for whom the stroke of punishment was due for their transgression (v.8). The Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering (v.10). The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him (v.6). My servant will justify the many, as he will bear their iniquities (v.11). He Himself bore the sin of the many, and interceded for the transgressors (v.12).
There is a clear contrast between the suffering righteous servant and those for whom He suffers and dies.
Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself in Luke 22:37 where He quotes a portion of Isaiah 53:12 and says that it must be fulfilled in Him.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'and He was numbered with transgressors': for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
Addionally, Luke records in Acts 8:26-35 that Philip said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. In that passage the Ethiopian Eunuch was reading Isaiah 53 from the Septuagint and asked Philip to whom it referred. Philip then began to preach Jesus to him from Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53 then is a clear Messianic prophecy with reference to Jesus and that He would render Himself as a guilt offering, dying in our place for our sins.
Yeah, All this was true in Jesus day, but Christianity has made ISRAEL BECOME the suffering servant, you think not?
Christianity set into killing anyone who loved and kept the commandments of God and anyone who was so brave to love the Torah, they become the suffering servant.
Christianity MADE the Jews, '' THE SUFFERING SERVANT.''
Is there some other servant out there who has bore the persecution of all the nations for 2000 years BECAUSE they wouldn't become an apostate against the God of heaven?
Is there some other people who were put into ovens because they refused to stop keeping the commandments of God that made them stick out as a sore thumb AS A SUFFERING SERVANT?
Yeah, All this was true in Jesus day, but Christianity has made ISRAEL BECOME the suffering servant, you think not?
Christianity set into killing anyone who loved and kept the commandments of God and anyone who was so brave to love the Torah, they become the suffering servant.
Christianity MADE the Jews, '' THE SUFFERING SERVANT.''
Is there some other servant out there who has bore the persecution of all the nations for 2000 years BECAUSE they wouldn't become an apostate against the God of heaven?
Is there some other people who were put into ovens because they refused to stop keeping the commandments of God that made them stick out as a sore thumb AS A SUFFERING SERVANT?
The topic, the only topic of this thread is that Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophecy which refutes the claims made by some that Jesus could not have died for the sins of the world.
The topic, the only topic of this thread is that Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophecy which refutes the claims made by some that Jesus could not have died for the sins of the world.
That's the topic I am discussing, is there some other people in the world who have been persecuted and killed for 2000 years for no other reason than that they were walking in the commandments of God?
Christianity made the Jews the suffering servant, for 2000 years Christianity has persecuted and killed anyone who would follow God.
Are you trying to appeal to the Jew about your Jesus who came to save them when all the so called followers of Jesus imprisoned them, treated them like dogs, tortured and persecuted them, put them into ovens, and after 2000 years of Anti-Semitism, you want to come along and show how your Jesus was the suffering Messiah AND NOT THEM? NOT THEM after they have suffered the punishment doled out at the hands of Christians persecuting them and torturing them for 2000 years, but they aren't the suffering servant?
WHO ELSE?
You present a Jesus, and then your fathers persecute and kill Jews for 2000 years, and now you want to claim a Jew named Jesus was the suffering Messiah 2000 years ago and YOU are one of HIS followers who have hated and persecuted the nation of Israel for 2000 years MAKING them the suffering servant, but YOU will convince them that it was not they who were being persecuted and killed for keeping the commandments of God?
The topic, the only topic of this thread is that Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophecy which refutes the claims made by some that Jesus could not have died for the sins of the world.
And that topic is unsubstantiated, except via personal interpretation and false teachings of men throughout the centuries.
Indeed, Isiah 53 could be speaking of a country, movement, organization or even a person yet to be revealed.
Yet as we read in PSALMS 49:7-----
No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them--
And that topic is unsubstantiated, except via personal interpretation and false teachings of men throughout the centuries.
Indeed, Isiah 53 could be speaking of a country, movement, organization or even a person yet to be revealed.
As was plainly shown in the OP Jesus said that Isaiah 53 had to be fulfilled in Him. As well, the apostle Philip knew that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. And it was shown that the suffering servant was an individual, not a group.
Isaiah 53 flat out states that the suffering servant bore the sin of many and that He died for them.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-04-2017 at 05:52 PM..
As was plainly shown in the OP Jesus said that Isaiah 53 had to be fulfilled in Him. As well, the apostle Philip knew that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. And it was shown that the suffering servant was an individual, not a group.
To make a case that the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is a group you must demonstrate that the scriptures anywhere state that a group of people offered themselves as a guilt offering by which they bore the sin of many. You also must demonstrate that the apostle Philip was in error in saying that Isaiah 53 applied to Jesus and that Jesus Himself was in error by applying it to Himself. One individual is in view in Isaiah 53. Not a group.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-04-2017 at 05:50 PM..
And that topic is unsubstantiated, except via personal interpretation and false teachings of men throughout the centuries.
Indeed, Isiah 53 could be speaking of a country, movement, organization or even a person yet to be revealed.
Yet as we read in PSALMS 49:7-----
No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them--
I remind you Philip shared Jesus with the Ethiopian eunuch, using Isaiah 53. It's about Jesus.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Peace