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And many Jews do not recognize it as you say, but I wouldn't expect you to pick the one's who don't.
gee what a profound enlightenment ... a Christian poster arbitrarily picks what Messianic Jew said about Isaiah 53 that concludes to the same opinion over against one that doesn't.
What can be proven is your open hypocrisy by not dogging any other poster for exactingthe same demand of proof according to their UR premise of Isaiah 45:23.
Maybe your bigotry has prevented you to recognized that the typical UR person in the Christianity forum isn't thinking of Judaism when the knee is bowing
LOL, was wondering when the word bigot would come into play.
gee what a profound enlightenment ... a Christian poster arbitrarily picks what Messianic Jew said about Isaiah 53 that concludes to the same opinion over against one that doesn't.
Read the site in its entirety, then get back with me.
It's not about endorsing - one way or the other.
In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations. - https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suf...ant-isaiah-53/
What can be proven is your open hypocrisy by not dogging any other poster for exactingthe same demand of proof according to their UR premise of Isaiah 45:23.
Maybe your bigotry has prevented you to recognized that the typical UR person in the Christianity forum isn't thinking of Judaism when the knee is bowing
In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations. - https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suf...ant-isaiah-53/
Dispersion of jews?
Hehe.
How many tribes?
No need to rebute ole friend, how are you?..
I miss the the days when and women would sit at the Lord's table and give a proper word of blessing. A considerate house.
Yet a certain man comes asking for so precious a gift and is denied.
Probably for the best, as if a host could ever speak of food.
The unavoidable fact is that not only did the apostle Philip say that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus, but so did Jesus Himself.
The further fact is that in Isaiah there some references to the suffering servant which do refer to Israel while other references to the suffering servant do not and cannot refer to Israel but refer to an individual. It is necessary to discern which is which.
For instance, in Isa. 42:18-25 the servant of the Lord is Israel, and this servant is blind and deaf and has sinned against the Lord and unwilling to walk in his ways, and did not obey his law.
In contrast, in Isa. 42:1-7 the servant of the Lord most definitely does not refer to Israel because this servant of the Lord is the delight of the Lord, He is appointed to open the eyes of the blind and bring out prisoners from the dungeon.
The servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:18-25 is blind and deaf. But the servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:1-7 will open the eyes of the blind. The servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:18-25 is unrighteous while the servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:1-7 is righteous. These are two different servants of the Lord. One is Israel, while the other is an individual with reference to the Messiah.
Likewise, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53 is righteous and carries out the purpose of the Lord. The servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:18-25 does not.
In Isaiah 50:4-10 the servant of the Lord is an individual who suffers rejection and beating because he is obedient to the Lord. This servant of the Lord says, ''I gave My back to those who strike Me, and My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.'' [v. 6] This sounds a lot like the suffering Jesus endured during His trial after His arrest.
Matt. 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him,
Matt. 27:30 They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
Mark 14:65 Some began to spit at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, "Prophesy!" And the officers received Him with slaps in the face.
Mark 15:19 They kept beating His head with a reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him.
There are definite contrasts between Israel as the servant of the Lord, and the individual who is the servant of the Lord.
Israel as the servant of the Lord is unrighteous, blind and deaf, disobedient and unwilling to walk in the way of the Lord.
The individual that is the servant of the Lord is the exact opposite and is completely responsive to God's purpose.
The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53 is not Israel. The servant of the Lord in Isa. 53 is the individual that is the Messiah. Again, for I don't know how many times it's been said already, Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself just as He applied Isa. 61:1-2a to Himself.
In Luke 4:17-20 Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a and said in verse 21 that the scripture had just been fulfilled.
Just as Isaiah 61:1-2a had been fulfilled by Jesus, so also Isaiah 53 was fulfilled in Jesus. Of course those who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah will continue to claim that Isa. 53 doesn't refer to Him, but both Philip and Jesus said that it did.
The one who was pierced through for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities, who rendered Himself as a guilt offering, who bore the sin of many, who interceded for the transgressors was Jesus. Not Israel.
I'll begin.
In the military there is a word term known as battle buddy.
This is similar to the Lord's command..For those that experienced such a life of 29 days and third general order there is only Love.
It is not the love that most men and women speak of.
It is the command of one who is above all.
The Lord sends us in pairs by reason of the covenant
Yet a man takes for granted the very gift.
I once respected this order until i saw a good friends heart break.
His heart wasn't broken by force. Lord knows the man was nearly twice my size. And he and I had wrestled in the past.
But there was a time where my friend defeated me.
It was a new years eve party. And the woman he loved struck him with words I cannot repeat.
Before this old friend could react, the brother punched through a window, severing the artery in his wrist.
It happened so fast that night. It was the spirit that called me.
Something was amiss. I followed the evidential damage and blood trail by the light of the moon and stars.
Only to find my good friend in despair. I'll never forget what he said, and what I yelled at him that night.
The unavoidable fact is that not only did the apostle Philip say that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus, but so did Jesus Himself.
The further fact is that in Isaiah there some references to the suffering servant which do refer to Israel while other references to the suffering servant do not and cannot refer to Israel but refer to an individual. It is necessary to discern which is which.
For instance, in Isa. 42:18-25 the servant of the Lord is Israel, and this servant is blind and deaf and has sinned against the Lord and unwilling to walk in his ways, and did not obey his law.
In contrast, in Isa. 42:1-7 the servant of the Lord most definitely does not refer to Israel because this servant of the Lord is the delight of the Lord, He is appointed to open the eyes of the blind and bring out prisoners from the dungeon.
The servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:18-25 is blind and deaf. But the servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:1-7 will open the eyes of the blind. The servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:18-25 is unrighteous while the servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:1-7 is righteous. These are two different servants of the Lord. One is Israel, while the other is an individual with reference to the Messiah.
Likewise, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53 is righteous and carries out the purpose of the Lord. The servant of the Lord in Isa. 42:18-25 does not.
In Isaiah 50:4-10 the servant of the Lord is an individual who suffers rejection and beating because he is obedient to the Lord. This servant of the Lord says, ''I gave My back to those who strike Me, and My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.'' [v. 6] This sounds a lot like the suffering Jesus endured during His trial after His arrest.
Matt. 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him,
Matt. 27:30 They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
Mark 14:65 Some began to spit at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, "Prophesy!" And the officers received Him with slaps in the face.
Mark 15:19 They kept beating His head with a reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him.
There are definite contrasts between Israel as the servant of the Lord, and the individual who is the servant of the Lord.
Israel as the servant of the Lord is unrighteous, blind and deaf, disobedient and unwilling to walk in the way of the Lord.
The individual that is the servant of the Lord is the exact opposite and is completely responsive to God's purpose.
The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53 is not Israel. The servant of the Lord in Isa. 53 is the individual that is the Messiah. Again, for I don't know how many times it's been said already, Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself just as He applied Isa. 61:1-2a to Himself.
In Luke 4:17-20 Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a and said in verse 21 that the scripture had just been fulfilled.
Just as Isaiah 61:1-2a had been fulfilled by Jesus, so also Isaiah 53 was fulfilled in Jesus. Of course those who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah will continue to claim that Isa. 53 doesn't refer to Him, but both Philip and Jesus said that it did.
The one who was pierced through for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities, who rendered Himself as a guilt offering, who bore the sin of many, who interceded for the transgressors was Jesus. Not Israel.
I believe that both are true because It starts with the Messiah, but Israel is the body of the Messiah ... you can not separate the head from the body, they are one.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I believe that both are true because It starts with the Messiah, but Israel is the body of the Messiah ... you can not separate the head from the body, they are one.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
You are trying to apply something that is true of the church to Israel to which it does not apply. Jesus went to the cross and died for our sins before the church-age began. Before the church-age began, we were not all baptized into one body. Israel was not in Christ. Israel did not have the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 did something that was impossible for Israel to do. Israel could not render itself as a guilt offering for the transgressors. Israel in context WAS the transgressor. The suffering servant interceded on behalf of the transgressors. If the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 was Israel then that would mean that Israel interceded for Israel which by definition is impossible. An intercessor intercedes on behalf of someone else. Israel can not intercede for Israel. Nor could Israel intercede on behalf of anyone else.
And I just got though showing in my last post that in Isaiah some passages do refer to Israel as the suffering servant, but in other passages the suffering servant is not Israel but is an individual whose nature is completely different from that of Israel.
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... a Christian poster arbitrarily picks what Messianic Jew said about Isaiah 53 that concludes to the same opinion over against one that doesn't.
