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You are trying to apply something that is true of the church to Israel to which it does not apply. Jesus went to the cross and died for our sins before the church-age began. Before the church-age began, we were not all baptized into one body. Israel was not in Christ. Israel did not have the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 did something that was impossible for Israel to do. Israel could not render itself as a guilt offering for the transgressors. Israel in context WAS the transgressor. The suffering servant interceded on behalf of the transgressors. If the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 was Israel then that would mean that Israel interceded for Israel which by definition is impossible. An intercessor intercedes on behalf of someone else. Israel can not intercede for Israel. Nor could Israel intercede on behalf of anyone else.
And I just got though showing in my last post that in Isaiah some passages do refer to Israel as the suffering servant, but in other passages the suffering servant is not Israel but is an individual whose nature is completely different from that of Israel.
You are trying to apply something that is true of the church to Israel to which it does not apply. Jesus went to the cross and died for our sins before the church-age began. Before the church-age began, we were not all baptized into one body. Israel was not in Christ. Israel did not have the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 did something that was impossible for Israel to do. Israel could not render itself as a guilt offering for the transgressors. Israel in context WAS the transgressor. The suffering servant interceded on behalf of the transgressors. If the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 was Israel then that would mean that Israel interceded for Israel which by definition is impossible. An intercessor intercedes on behalf of someone else. Israel can not intercede for Israel. Nor could Israel intercede on behalf of anyone else.
And I just got though showing in my last post that in Isaiah some passages do refer to Israel as the suffering servant, but in other passages the suffering servant is not Israel but is an individual whose nature is completely different from that of Israel.
Mike, think you're spot on. certainly a strong case can be made that the writers of the New Testament at the very beginnings of Christianity thought that prophecy in the Old Testament (including the "suffering servant" of Isaiah) was fulfilled in Christ:
"...all this has taken place so that the Scriptures of the Prophets be fulfilled" (Matt. 26:56),
"...and He said to them, 'oh, foolish men and how slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things to enter into His glory?' and beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them all the things concerning Himself in all the scripture." (Luke 24: 25-27)
"...now He said to them, ' these are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)
in the peace and love of Christ who is said to have addressed those learned in scripture/Torah: "you search the scriptures because you think they give you eternal life (yet) these are the very words that bear witness to me." (John 5:39).
apologies if all this has already been brought up by wiser (and quicker) heads than me, LOL.
Mike, think you're spot on. certainly a strong case can be made that the writers of the New Testament at the very beginnings of Christianity thought that prophecy in the Old Testament (including the "suffering servant" of Isaiah) was fulfilled in Christ:
"...all this has taken place so that the Scriptures of the Prophets be fulfilled" (Matt. 26:56),
"...and He said to them, 'oh, foolish men and how slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things to enter into His glory?' and beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them all the things concerning Himself in all the scripture." (Luke 24: 25-27)
"...now He said to them, ' these are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)
in the peace and love of Christ who is said to have addressed those learned in scripture/Torah: "you search the scriptures because you think they give you eternal life (yet) these are the very words that bear witness to me." (John 5:39).
apologies if all this has already been brought up by wiser (and quicker) heads than me, LOL.
Hi George. There's never any need to apologize for defending what the Bible states about Jesus. Absolutely they thought, and correctly so, that Old Testament prophecy had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus, including Isaiah 53 which is perhaps the most clear of the Messianic prophecies. To the unbiased mind there really is no question about that fact.
Mike, think you're spot on. certainly a strong case can be made that the writers of the New Testament at the very beginnings of Christianity thought that prophecy in the Old Testament (including the "suffering servant" of Isaiah) was fulfilled in Christ:
"...all this has taken place so that the Scriptures of the Prophets be fulfilled" (Matt. 26:56),
"...and He said to them, 'oh, foolish men and how slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things to enter into His glory?' and beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them all the things concerning Himself in all the scripture." (Luke 24: 25-27)
"...now He said to them, ' these are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)
in the peace and love of Christ who is said to have addressed those learned in scripture/Torah: "you search the scriptures because you think they give you eternal life (yet) these are the very words that bear witness to me." (John 5:39).
apologies if all this has already been brought up by wiser (and quicker) heads than me, LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Hi George. There's never any need to apologize for defending what the Bible states about Jesus. Absolutely they thought, and correctly so, that Old Testament prophecy had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus, including Isaiah 53 which is perhaps the most clear of the Messianic prophecies. To the unbiased mind there really is no question about that fact.
In the love of Christ,
Mike
You have so many things right and so many others wrong, Mike. It is frustrating.
Yes we are all learning, it's just that some of things we have got wrong are incomprehensible, especially being comfortable with God making Hitler and Nero look like angels, and all other beliefs that stem from such a depiction of God. A failure to accept that throughout scripture many wrote of God from the image they held of him, instead of through the nature and character of Jesus Christ is in my opinion behind much of the incomprehensible beliefs about him.
No man taught and spoke(the way he conveyed the message from his Father) like him, they marveled at the gracious words that came out of his mouth...taught what ? The nature and character of God, if this is the case, then how can we accept anything written which conflicts with the teachings of Jesus Christ. This is not cherry picking, this is following the voice of one who knew God better then anyone . A greater one than Solomon is here, is a vast understatement of the gospel writer in my opinion.
Hi George. There's never any need to apologize for defending what the Bible states about Jesus. Absolutely they thought, and correctly so, that Old Testament prophecy had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus, including Isaiah 53 which is perhaps the most clear of the Messianic prophecies. To the unbiased mind there really is no question about that fact.
You are ignoring the requirement for the sacrifice---without spot or blemish. All have sinned eliminates all but one. Jesus was without sin; he was without blemish.
He was God in the flesh and He sacrificed his earthly life to pay for man's sins.
Can god not have an earthly life anytime god desires??
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