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And yet who is the one that will read " For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall live" and begin to try and finagle out of that meaning all men will be saved?
I got mine from the apostles and the early church fathers who learned straight from the original apostles, and who understood the Bible in the original languages.
The second century church father Irenaeus disagrees with you. Here's what he wrote in the first book of Against Heresies.
Against Heresies, Book I
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolding mine]
Notice first of all that Irenaeus, writing in the mid to late 2nd century AD, states that this unity of the faith was received from the apostles.
Secondly notice what I bolded. Irenaeus speaks of God's judgment in which there is a distinction between those who are sent into everlasting fire (αἰώνων πῦρ) and those who are surrounded with everlasting glory (δόξαν αἰώνων).
The same word, 'αἰώνων' is used for both groups. Those who are sent into αἰώνων fire, and those who are surrounded with αἰώνων glory. The two groups are distinct from each other. While one group enjoys αἰώνων glory the other group is sent into αἰώνων fire. The duration of αἰώνων fire for the one group is therefore equal in duration to the αἰώνων glory of the other group.
And this fact is further brought out in book 4.
Against Heresies, Book IV
Chapter XXVIII.-Those Persons Prove Themselves Senseless Who Exaggerate the Mercy of Christ, But are Silent as to the Judgment, and Look Only at the More Abundant Grace of the New Testament; But, Forgetful of the Greater Degree of Perfection Which It Demands from Us, They Endeavour to Show that There is Another God Beyond Him Who Created the World.
3. For the sesame heretics already mentioned by us have fallen away from themselves, by accusing the Lord, in whom they say that they believe. For those points to which they call attention with regard to the God who then awarded temporal punishments to the unbelieving, and smote the Egyptians, while He saved those that were obedient; these same [facts, I say, ] shall nevertheless repeat themselves in the Lord, who judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free: [Bolding mine]
One group is eternally judged while the other group is eternally free. Again, the duration of judgment of the one group is equal to the duration of freedom of the other group. If the one group is not under eternal judgment then the other group is not eternally free.
And just before section 3 above, in section 2 Irenaeus writes the following.
Against Heresies, Book IV
Chapter XXVIII.-Those Persons Prove Themselves Senseless Who Exaggerate the Mercy of Christ, But are Silent as to the Judgment, and Look Only at the More Abundant Grace of the New Testament; But, Forgetful of the Greater Degree of Perfection Which It Demands from Us, They Endeavour to Show that There is Another God Beyond Him Who Created the World.
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity," these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong, ) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word. [Bolding mine]
Irenaeus states that the punishment is not merely temporal (relating to time as opposed to eternity), but is eternal, as is the eternality of the kingdom for those blessed by God. Two groups, forever under different circumstances. One group enjoys eternal blessing, and the other group endures eternal punishment.
That's what Irenaeus writes about the matter, and he states that it is the unity of the faith received from the apostles. And again, Irenaeus wrote this in the latter half of the second century before Universalism began to experience a rise in popularity.
You're free to believe him or not.
Turning to the Bible; even in the Old Testament, in Daniel 12:2, speaks of those after their resurrection. Some will be raised to eternal life while others will be raised to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Again, this is after their resurrection at which point they will never physically die again. But while many will be resurrected to eternal life, others will instead be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt instead. Both groups will have physical life forever, but only those who have a relationship with God will have what is described as eternal life, while those who have no relationship with God will instead of 'eternal life' be under unending disgrace and contempt.
This is echoed in John 5:28-29 which says that all who are in the tombs will come forth, some to a resurrection of life, and others to a resurrection of judgment.
A distinction is made between 'eternal life' and 'disgrace and everlasting contempt and judgment.' Everyone gets resurrected, but not everyone gets resurrected to 'eternal life.' Physical life, yes. But not the kind of life which enjoys an eternal relationship with God.
And Satan? He goes into the lake of fire where according to Revelation 20:10 he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Biblical writers did not believe in Universal salvation and they did not teach it. Now, you may not believe what the Bible says, but to deny that the Bible says it is simply denial of what is written.
And those who claim that the Hebrew word 'olam', and the Greek word 'aion' never refer to and can't refer to unending duration simply don't know what they are talking about.
In Daniel 12:2 the same word 'olam' is used for both groups of people who have been resurrected never to experience physical death again. One group is resurrected to olam life. The other group is resurrected to olam disgrace and contempt. Those who are resurrected to olam disgrace and contempt do not have olam life. The two groups are contrasted with each other. Since the one group is resurrected to unending olam life (eternal life), the other group is resurrected to unending olam disgrace and contempt (eternal disgrace and contempt).
The same is true in Matthew 25:46 in which the word - 'αἰώνιον' is used both for those who will go away into αἰώνιον life (eternal life) and those who will instead go away into αἰώνιον punishment (eternal punishment.) One group has αἰώνιον life. The other group has αἰώνιον punishment. Those who are in the group who go away into αἰώνιον punishment do not go away into αἰώνιον life. They are mutually exclusive. The period of duration is the same for both groups. Eternal life and eternal punishment are in view in Matthew 25:46. If the punishment is not eternal then neither is the life. But these two groups have both been resurrected as per John 5:28-29. And having been resurrected both groups will have physical life forever. But one group will be under eternal punishment in contrast with the other group who have eternal life.
And by eternal life is not meant duration only, but also quality of life. This is why the word αἰώνιον is used for eternal life rather than ἀΐδιος which has to do with duration only while αἰώνιον refers not only to unending life but also to quality of that life.
Again, you are free to believe this or not. I'm not spending any more time on this because all of the above is simply going to be rejected by the usual people. There's no doubt about that.
And yet who is the one that will read " For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall live" and begin to try and finagle out of that meaning all men will be saved?
Do you get the same message throughout the whole of scripture?
The second century church father Irenaeus disagrees with you. Here's what he wrote in the first book of Against Heresies.
Against Heresies, Book I
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolding mine]
Notice first of all that Irenaeus, writing in the mid to late 2nd century AD, states that this unity of the faith was received from the apostles.
Secondly notice what I bolded. Irenaeus speaks of God's judgment in which there is a distinction between those who are sent into everlasting fire (αἰώνων πῦρ) and those who are surrounded with everlasting glory (δόξαν αἰώνων).
The same word, 'αἰώνων' is used for both groups. Those who are sent into αἰώνων fire, and those who are surrounded with αἰώνων glory. The two groups are distinct from each other. While one group enjoys αἰώνων glory the other group is sent into αἰώνων fire. The duration of αἰώνων fire for the one group is therefore equal in duration to the αἰώνων glory of the other group.
And this fact is further brought out in book 4.
Against Heresies, Book IV
Chapter XXVIII.-Those Persons Prove Themselves Senseless Who Exaggerate the Mercy of Christ, But are Silent as to the Judgment, and Look Only at the More Abundant Grace of the New Testament; But, Forgetful of the Greater Degree of Perfection Which It Demands from Us, They Endeavour to Show that There is Another God Beyond Him Who Created the World.
3. For the sesame heretics already mentioned by us have fallen away from themselves, by accusing the Lord, in whom they say that they believe. For those points to which they call attention with regard to the God who then awarded temporal punishments to the unbelieving, and smote the Egyptians, while He saved those that were obedient; these same [facts, I say, ] shall nevertheless repeat themselves in the Lord, who judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free: [Bolding mine]
One group is eternally judged while the other group is eternally free. Again, the duration of judgment of the one group is equal to the duration of freedom of the other group. If the one group is not under eternal judgment then the other group is not eternally free.
And just before section 3 above, in section 2 Irenaeus writes the following.
Against Heresies, Book IV
Chapter XXVIII.-Those Persons Prove Themselves Senseless Who Exaggerate the Mercy of Christ, But are Silent as to the Judgment, and Look Only at the More Abundant Grace of the New Testament; But, Forgetful of the Greater Degree of Perfection Which It Demands from Us, They Endeavour to Show that There is Another God Beyond Him Who Created the World.
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity," these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong, ) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word. [Bolding mine]
Irenaeus states that the punishment is not merely temporal (relating to time as opposed to eternity), but is eternal, as is the eternality of the kingdom for those blessed by God. Two groups, forever under different circumstances. One group enjoys eternal blessing, and the other group endures eternal punishment.
That's what Irenaeus writes about the matter, and he states that it is the unity of the faith received from the apostles. And again, Irenaeus wrote this in the latter half of the second century before Universalism began to experience a rise in popularity.
You're free to believe him or not.
Turning to the Bible; even in the Old Testament, in Daniel 12:2, speaks of those after their resurrection. Some will be raised to eternal life while others will be raised to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Again, this is after their resurrection at which point they will never physically die again. But while many will be resurrected to eternal life, others will instead be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt instead. Both groups will have physical life forever, but only those who have a relationship with God will have what is described as eternal life, while those who have no relationship with God will instead of 'eternal life' be under unending disgrace and contempt.
This is echoed in John 5:28-29 which says that all who are in the tombs will come forth, some to a resurrection of life, and others to a resurrection of judgment.
A distinction is made between 'eternal life' and 'disgrace and everlasting contempt and judgment.' Everyone gets resurrected, but not everyone gets resurrected to 'eternal life.' Physical life, yes. But not the kind of life which enjoys an eternal relationship with God.
And Satan? He goes into the lake of fire where according to Revelation 20:10 he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Biblical writers did not believe in Universal salvation and they did not teach it. Now, you may not believe what the Bible says, but to deny that the Bible says it is simply denial of what is written.
And those who claim that the Hebrew word 'olam', and the Greek word 'aion' never refer to and can't refer to unending duration simply don't know what they are talking about.
In Daniel 12:2 the same word 'olam' is used for both groups of people who have been resurrected never to experience physical death again. One group is resurrected to olam life. The other group is resurrected to olam disgrace and contempt. Those who are resurrected to olam disgrace and contempt do not have olam life. The two groups are contrasted with each other. Since the one group is resurrected to unending olam life (eternal life), the other group is resurrected to unending olam disgrace and contempt (eternal disgrace and contempt).
The same is true in Matthew 25:46 in which the word - 'αἰώνιον' is used both for those who will go away into αἰώνιον life (eternal life) and those who will instead go away into αἰώνιον punishment (eternal punishment.) One group has αἰώνιον life. The other group has αἰώνιον punishment. Those who are in the group who go away into αἰώνιον punishment do not go away into αἰώνιον life. They are mutually exclusive. The period of duration is the same for both groups. Eternal life and eternal punishment are in view in Matthew 25:46. If the punishment is not eternal then neither is the life. But these two groups have both been resurrected as per John 5:28-29. And having been resurrected both groups will have physical life forever. But one group will be under eternal punishment in contrast with the other group who have eternal life.
And by eternal life is not meant duration only, but also quality of life. This is why the word αἰώνιον is used for eternal life rather than ἀΐδιος which has to do with duration only while αἰώνιον refers not only to unending life but also to quality of that life.
Again, you are free to believe this or not. I'm not spending any more time on this because all of the above is simply going to be rejected by the usual people. There's no doubt about that.
Over 1200 posts on this thread. Good grief!
And yet I can quote early church fathers that teach UR just as easily. It was very common in the early church, just not so much in the Roman version, which also started towards the idea of no forgiveness after becoming Christian until the other eastern churches brought that to halt. The Roman church was a much more punishment and torment minded church than the eastern ones.
But once again you threaten to take your toys and leave because people wont believe you. Do you ever get tired of playing this card?
Do you get the same message throughout the whole of scripture?
In other places as well,yes. You will dodge all of them as well , which is your right.
My point though is that your version is a much less godly version that UR, because it sees God as less powerful , compassionate, and loving , and ends with most of humanity suffering never ending torment for no apparent reason. UR is much more glorifying to God than ET.
Do you get the same message throughout the whole of scripture?
One of the most obvious places to look for the message of eternal torment being part of the good news( I cannot believe i am saying that in the same sentence) would be in the book of Acts where we read of the apostles Preaching Jesus Christ the good news of God.... Not one single time do we read about them preaching eternal hell along with Jesus Christ the good news of God.... Why do you think that is?. Did they forget to mention it ?, Was it not important to them like it is with todays fundamentalist?, Did Jesus forget to mention it to them that eternal hell was very much part of being saved ?. You fundamentalists are making a grave error linking eternal hell to the message of salvation. I think the only reason eternal hell is used in the message of the fundamentalist(not the good news of Jesus Christ i hasten to add) is because it lacks the power of God , so the next best thing for them was to resort to fear tactics to paralyze folk into believing.
In other places as well,yes. You will dodge all of them as well , which is your right.
My point though is that your version is a much less godly version that UR, because it sees God as less powerful , compassionate, and loving , and ends with most of humanity suffering never ending torment for no apparent reason. UR is much more glorifying to God than ET.
You have already been caught in your own snare when you called God a liar.
There will be no forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
You have already been caught in your own snare when you called God a liar.
There will be no forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
I have no clue what you are talking about.I am simply comparing the 2 views of God.
Don't get too elated .
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