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No I acknowledged that - THAT Sabbath began at sunset - The Day of Atonement. Again, Nehemiah is not showing that the Sabbath starts at sunset. Nehemiah is showing that the gates were closed at sunset in preparation for the Sabbath to keep the merchants from entering in.
What proof do you have that Neh 13:19 is referring to the Day of Atonement?
You've acknowledged that Leviticus 23:32 states that the Sabbath begins at sunset but you try to pass it off as an exception while denying that Nehemiah 13:19 also shows that the Sabbath begins at sunset. According to Nehemiah the Sabbath was to begin as soon as it got dark. It was still light but beginning to get dark. Once it did get dark is when the Sabbath was to begin.
Nehemiah 13:19As soon as it began to grow dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and gave orders that they should not be opened until after the Sabbath. And I stationed some of my servants at the gates, that no load might be brought in on the Sabbath day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeWillCome2040
No I acknowledged that - THAT Sabbath began at sunset - The Day of Atonement. Again, Nehemiah is not showing that the Sabbath starts at sunset. Nehemiah is showing that the gates were closed at sunset in preparation for the Sabbath to keep the merchants from entering in.
That's what I said. You tried to pass Leviticus 23:32 off as an exception.
If you can't understand plain language, there's nothing I can do about that. One last attempt. Nehemiah said that the Sabbath was about to start once it got dark. It hadn't yet become dark but was getting there. Once it did get dark the Sabbath was to begin. Nehemiah plainly said that it began to grow dark BEFORE the Sabbath. There is nothing complicated about this in the least. I will leave you and this thread with a comment on Nehemiah 13:19 by John Gill.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath,.... Or "were shaded" (g); that is, as Jarchi interprets it, when the shadows of the eve of the sabbath were stretched out upon the gates; the sabbath did not begin till sun setting, and the stars appeared; but before that, as the sun was declining, the shadows through the houses in Jerusalem, and mountains about it, spread themselves over the gates: and when it was near dusk, and as soon as it was so,
Verse 19. - When the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath. The Jews have always reckoned their days from sunset to sunset, grounding their practice on the account of the Creation given in the first chapter of Genesis, where "the evening and the morning" arc said to constitute each of the six days. There was also a special command that the "sabbath" of the great day of atonement should be kept "from even to even" (Leviticus 23:32). I commanded that the gates should be shut. The gates would as a matter of course have been shut at sunset. Nehemiah required that the closing should take place some half-hour earlier, when the shadows were lengthening, and the day was drawing towards a close. He regarded it as a sort of desecration of the sabbath to carry on secular work to the last allowable moment. Some of my servants. Compare Nehemiah 4:16; Nehemiah 5:16. That there should be no burthen brought in. Foot passengers were no doubt allowed to enter and leave the city on the sabbath, Nehemiah's servants being set to see that under no pretence should merchandise be allowed to enter.
No matter how much you deny it, the Jewish day began at sundown, and so did the Sabbath. This has been shown from the Bible and from Jewish commentators as per post #2.
Hi SAAN, the verse in Matthew 28:1 is in referencing the week. The word is in fact plural. Often you will see the definite article in reference to the actual Sabbath. Therefore, the verse is showing that the week had ended that Mary was coming to the Tomb on the first day of the week.
The same could be in reference to Acts 20:7.
Act 20:7 And on the first of the week, the disciples having been gathered together to break bread, Paul was discoursing to them, about to depart on the morrow, he was also continuing the discourse till midnight,
Wow. SAAN is dead wrong in his first quote. It should be clear that the women were going to the tomb before sunrise of "Sunday,"while it was still dark, but that has no bearing on the start of the day which was sunset of the Sabbath day.
As for his second quote, you should be able to see that the earliest Jewish disciples participated in Synagogue and Temple Sabbath observations and met together to break bread after sunset: making it the first day of the week and Paul probably only spoke for a few hours until midnight rather than a marathon morning until midnight some people seem to think was the case.
As far as I can tell, this interpretation of Sabbath hours is just a silly speculation on your part, but tell me why I should think it is worthwhile.
Hannibal, refute me from the scriptures. Mike did a good job with quoting Leviticus and I gave him notice that he did so. Do you think I'm here to promote me or God? Show me the Truth, don't just say I'm wrong. I know the error of wanting to "be right".
Sounds like you are here to promote your ways, God isn't confused about his ways. There is no debate.
That's what I said. You tried to pass Leviticus 23:32 off as an exception.
If you can't understand plain language, there's nothing I can do about that. One last attempt. Nehemiah said that the Sabbath was about to start once it got dark. It hadn't yet become dark but was getting there. Once it did get dark the Sabbath was to begin. Nehemiah plainly said that it began to grow dark BEFORE the Sabbath. There is nothing complicated about this in the least. I will leave you and this thread with a comment on Nehemiah 13:19 by John Gill.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath,.... Or "were shaded" (g); that is, as Jarchi interprets it, when the shadows of the eve of the sabbath were stretched out upon the gates; the sabbath did not begin till sun setting, and the stars appeared; but before that, as the sun was declining, the shadows through the houses in Jerusalem, and mountains about it, spread themselves over the gates: and when it was near dusk, and as soon as it was so,
Verse 19. - When the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath. The Jews have always reckoned their days from sunset to sunset, grounding their practice on the account of the Creation given in the first chapter of Genesis, where "the evening and the morning" arc said to constitute each of the six days. There was also a special command that the "sabbath" of the great day of atonement should be kept "from even to even" (Leviticus 23:32). I commanded that the gates should be shut. The gates would as a matter of course have been shut at sunset. Nehemiah required that the closing should take place some half-hour earlier, when the shadows were lengthening, and the day was drawing towards a close. He regarded it as a sort of desecration of the sabbath to carry on secular work to the last allowable moment. Some of my servants. Compare Nehemiah 4:16; Nehemiah 5:16. That there should be no burthen brought in. Foot passengers were no doubt allowed to enter and leave the city on the sabbath, Nehemiah's servants being set to see that under no pretence should merchandise be allowed to enter.
No matter how much you deny it, the Jewish day began at sundown, and so did the Sabbath. This has been shown from the Bible and from Jewish commentators as per post #2.
That's all the time I'm spending on this.
Neh 13:19 And it came to pass, when the gates were set up in Jerusalem, before the sabbath, that I spoke, and they shut the gates; and I gave orders that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and I set some of my servants at the gates, that none should bring in burdens on the sabbath-day.
That above is from the Septuagint (Brenton).
Now you said the Septuagint was the proper rendering. I hope you see it differs from your Hebrew derived text.
Wow. SAAN is dead wrong in his first quote. It should be clear that the women were going to the tomb before sunrise of "Sunday,"while it was still dark, but that has no bearing on the start of the day which was sunset of the Sabbath day.
As for his second quote, you should be able to see that the earliest Jewish disciples participated in Synagogue and Temple Sabbath observations and met together to break bread after sunset: making it the first day of the week and Paul probably only spoke for a few hours until midnight rather than a marathon morning until midnight some people seem to think was the case.
As far as I can tell, this interpretation of Sabbath hours is just a silly speculation on your part, but tell me why I should think it is worthwhile.
The women were going to the tomb at the rising of the sun. It should be clear to anyone that studied this that to go earlier would be futile since the tomb was still to be sealed until the day started as decreed.
It was still dark but it was also the point at which the sun was rising and therefore the first day of the week.
The Sabbath Day is the period of the Day in which the sun is rising to the point at which it is set.
Jewish Calendar Date
When G‑d created time, He first created night and then day. Therefore, a Jewish calendar date begins with the night beforehand. While a day in the secular calendar begins and ends at midnight, a Jewish day goes from nightfall to nightfall. Shabbat begins on Friday night, and a yahrtzeit lamp is kindled the evening before the yahrtzeit (anniversary of a person's passing), before nightfall. If the 10th of Iyar falls on a Wednesday, and a child is born Wednesday night after dark, the child's birthday is the 11th of Iyar.
Rabbi David Sperling
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Question:
Does the Jewish day begin at sunset or nightfall? For example does Sabbath begin at sunset or nightfall?
Answer:
Shalom,
Thank you for your question. The Jewish day starts at nightfall, and continues throughout the night and following day, until the next night. This is based on the first verses in the story of creation (in the book of Genesis), where it says "it was night, and it was day – day one [of creation]".
The status of the dusk – that is from when the sun sets below the horizon – until it is truly dark (usually measured by the appearance of three medium sized stars in the sky) is a question of debate amongst the early Rabbis. Today we treat this time period as a doubt, and as such we are strict to act as though it is both night and day, whichever side will be strict. For example, on Friday afternoon we start the Jewish Sabbath a few moments before sunset – and treat the dusk period as night, and therefore already Sabbath. But on Saturday night, we do not finish the Sabbath until three stars have appeared in the sky – and thus treat the dusk period as part of the day.
I hope this is of some help to you.
Blessings.
Leviticus 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”
By our calendar a new day begins at midnight. By the Jewish calendar a new day begins at sunset. Don't waste your time even arguing about it.
Your right in the one instance Mike. But that is actually a High Sabbath and I'm more specifically referring to the other sabbaths.
Regarding the Septuagint being the source for the early Christian era, that is only speculated by scholars due to not having a Hebrew text to refer to. However, we know from Dead Sea Scrolls that a hebrew text (now extant) did exist. So it could be that the similarities that scholars find in the Septuagint could have been found in the Hebrew text. After all, the LXX was derived from those hebrew sources. ;-)
Only the Torah was translated by the 72 Sages...The authors of the remainder of the Tanakh are unknown as far as I know...
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